Butterflies in Virginia ?

[NavArch]

I found the VA statute 18.2-308 on "Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry". It talks about a number of knife types, but I cannot find the language that would address butterflies (balisongs). A visit to the local county police office did not help. The officer I talked with brought out the same statute, and told me that they were illegal because all that he had seen were double-edged (dirks, under VA law). I politely told him that I know that some balisongs have blades that are not double-edged, and that I was looking for a more definitive answer.

Any definitive answers out there?

 

[moonwilson]

I'm 99.9% sure that it is illegal to carry a balisong of any size in Virginia. Likewise any automatics, double edged blades or fixed blades over 4" in length concealed. I think you can carry as big a folder as you want. That's not too bad considering some of the laws in other states. You can own any of the knives mentioned above, you just can't carry them. I think you can carry a fixed blade of any size openly.

Virginia's pretty knife friendly. I carried whatever I wanted to there for years and years and never had any problems. I used to carry in school all of the time back before that was a big deal. But now I live in Georgia. I've heard that it's a no-no to carry anything over 2" here in Atlanta. Not that I pay any attention to that. My philosphy is that you can carry anything you want, as long as you don't get caught with it. As long as you don't draw attention to yourself or get caught doing anything illegal, cops have more important things to worry about than what's in your pocket.

 

[FullerH]

Bali-songs are classed as "gravity blades" in Virginia, I believe, hence illegal to carry.

 

[dsvirsky]

Bali-songs are classed as "gravity blades" in Virginia, I believe, hence illegal to carry.

Concealed carry of a balisong is illegal (open carry is legal) in VA, but not because they're classified as gravity blades. Applying a rather odd logic, the Viriginia courts have held that a balisong is a "weapon of like kind" to a dirk. The case is Delcid v. Commonwealth.

 

[partridge]

Concealed carry of a balisong is illegal (open carry is legal) in VA, but not because they're classified as gravity blades. Applying a rather odd logic, the Viriginia courts have held that a balisong is a "weapon of like kind" to a dirk. The case is Delcid v. Commonwealth.

The knife does not fit the definition of a dirk established
in Richards. Therefore, we must inquire whether it is a "weapon
of like kind." To be so, it must first be a weapon. "Weapon"
is a commonly used word. In construing the statute, we assume,
in the absence of contrary expression, that the legislature
intended that the word be given its usual and accepted meaning.
See Stein v. Commonwealth, 12 Va. App. 65, 69, 402 S.E.2d 238,
241 (1991). Webster's dictionary defines "weapon" thus:
An instrument of offensive or defensive
combat: something to fight with.
Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary 1326 (1977). Common
experience teaches that bladed instruments may be possessed and
used for non-aggressive as well as aggressive purposes. In the
former instance, they are deemed implements; in the latter,
weapons. Any given bladed instrument may fall into either
category or both, depending on the circumstances and purpose
surrounding its possession and use. Thus, determination whether
a given bladed instrument is an implement or a weapon requires
consideration not only of the physical character of the
instrument itself, but also of the circumstances surrounding its
possession and use.

The knife in question is useful as a weapon of like kind to
a dirk. Its fixed blade, sharp point, and single-sharpened edge
afford unquestionable utility as a stabbing weapon, useful in
the same manner as a dagger, stiletto, or dirk. Furthermore,
when asked by Officer Heimberger whether "he had any weapons on
him," Delcid replied "that he did, he had a knife in his
pocket." The officer then removed from Delcid's pocket the
butterfly knife that is the subject of this case. Officer
Heimberger had come on the scene in response to a call from a
7-11 "for disorderly subjects refusing to leave." Arriving on
the scene, he saw Delcid and another person who matched the
description given in the complaint. Delcid had in his hand two
beers, one of which was open. He discarded the beers upon the
approach of the police car. These circumstances of disorder,
productive of a police complaint, suggest aggressive conduct and
intent. These circumstances, coupled with the physical
characteristics of the knife and Delcid's own acknowledgment of
it as a weapon, support the trial court's determination that the
knife was a weapon of like kind to a dirk.

Their logic was not actually all that odd. From what I can read of the appellate decision, the reasoning goes as follows:

Knives can be tools or weapons. Carrying a tool concealed is not a crime, while carrying a weapon is. They even state that "Thus, carrying concealed a non-weapon does not violate Code  18.2-308(A), even though that non-weapon may be "of like kind" to a dirk."

So what made it a weapon and not a tool? Circumstances. He's a convicted Felon, was arrested for another offense (drunk and disorderly conduct), and he actually STATED to the officer that it was a weapon by noting the knife when asked if he had any weapons.

This is why when you are asked if you have any weapons, the proper response is NO, however I do have a pocket knife. When asked why you carry it, the answer is NEVER "for self defense." You have to firmly establish that the knife is a tool, and you are carrying it as such. Any admission that it is a weapon or that you are carrying it as a weapon or for defensive purposes will MAKE it a weapon.

(This is also why you shouldn't carry knives with silly printing on them like "Super decapitator" or "Defender" or "Special Forces" etc.)

 

[NavArch]

Thanks for the posts. Exactly the sort of info I was looking for. Delcid v. Commonwealth looks like the sort of situation that seems to be inflicted upon us from all sides these days. One convicted felon says he is carrying a weapon and the inanimate object is now demonized. Not arguing with the posters; just frustrated (continuing saga).

"Yes, Officer, I am carrying a weapon", the man said, pulling a previously concealed Bic pen from a jacket pocket. "Weapon?", asks the surprised LEO. "Sure," the man repllies. "I can slap this steel-pointed plastic thru your eye socket and into your brain faster than you would ever believe."

And so, concealed carry of Bic pens in Virginia becomes a felony. Other states follow suit in copy-cat fashion. Bic company stock tanks. Liberals pat themselves on the back sufficiently hard to create repetitive stress injuries; end up suing themselves into bankrupcy. See? There is always the possibility of a silver lining in that otherwise nasty-looking cloud.

 

[partridge]

Well, to my reading, Virgina left it a little open. They said that the butterfly knife was NOT a dirk, but that it was of like kind to a dirk. They then say that it is not a crime to carry concealed a non-weapon of like kind to a dirk, but it IS to carry concealed a weapon of like kind to a dirk. What makes the butterfly knife in this one instance change from a non-weapon to a weapon? Circumstances, and the statements of the offender that it was a weapon. Different circumstances, different outcome.

 

[TBAUGH7]

Virginias law is vague, if you use a knife in a crime they will find a reason to make that knife illegal ( dirk, dagger, bowie) just to add a charge.
Most officers I know don't care if you carry a butterfly knife. ( just don't flip it in public. )

 

[dsvirsky]

partridge,
I take it you didn't read the well-reasoned dissent to the Delcid opinion.

 

[partridge]

partridge,
I take it you didn't read the well-reasoned dissent to the Delcid opinion.

What would make you think that? The dissent was very well reasoned, and I would have liked it if it had prevailed, but I was talking about the majority decision and their reasoning for it, which will likely be repeated in the future.

Just because I'm restating their arguments to try and explain them doesn't mean that I agree with them. Their logic isn't that odd and it doesn't appear to forever class butterfly knives as weapons, but they take a view on the circumstances and purposes for which the knife was carried that one has to understand in order to keep from running afoul of with careless statements.

You're not going to win an appeal by citing a minority dissent as precedent.

 

[SR_matt]

not to bring back a dead thread but just had a first hand acount to add

in va (yorktown to be exact) my friend was playing with his butterfly knife and a cop walked by kind of stumbled and looked right at the knife and kept walking with out saying a word.

by reading the laws butterfly knives are listed right after gravity knifes IIRC in the main weapons laws.

the officers i talked to around here about knife laws seemed rather chill about it them selves and just said if its much more than 2-3 inches put it on your belt to be safe and didnt seem to be woried to much about it in general.

-matt

 

[FullerH]

Concealed carry of a balisong is illegal (open carry is legal) in VA, but not because they're classified as gravity blades. Applying a rather odd logic, the Viriginia courts have held that a balisong is a "weapon of like kind" to a dirk. The case is Delcid v. Commonwealth.

Hey, I hadn't read this thread and seen your post and what followed. Fascinating.

 

[SR_matt]

hmm but in the law it states that balisong / butterfly knifes are not allowed to be carried
-matt

 

[Scorn]

Hi, this is my first post, so please excuse the n00bness.

Matt, in which law, and where in said law is it said that balisongs/butterfly knives aren't allowed to be carried? I've scoured the Virginia state code, and there is nothing about balisongs, butterfly knives, or gravity blades specifically. Are you talking about a law specific to a county/locality, or VA court cases?

One of my coworkers is a police officer, and was stumped when I asked him about balisongs and spring-assisted blades. We ended up spending the entire afternoon researching VA knife laws (instead of working).

 

[SR_matt]

you know when i went back and read it no where does it say you cannot posses it if it is openly carred. same with a switch blade (it talks about it being illegal to have with the intent to sell it but doesnt specificly say you can't just have it).

the big thing is consealed carry other than that it looks liek there is no law on it.

-matt

 

[tyr_shadowblade]

In another VA balisong case, a cheap $10 CCC was found under the floormat of a vehicle driven by an illegal immigrant who was suspected of gang membership. Judge ruled that the shape of the tang was similar to "the hilt of a dirk", thus making it a weapon "of like kind."

This creates an unfortunate precedent, but judges do have flexibility (should they choose to exercise it) and this defendant, as well as Delcid, were obvious scumbags -- which certainly prejudiced the court against them.

 

[Scorn]

I read up on more VA court cases regarding balisongs and knives in general (found on this handy webpage - the "weapon of like kind" cases are towards the middle), and it seems that the rulings depend heavily on 2 things: whether the blade is a weapon, and whether the defendant intended to use it as a weapon.

Unfortunately the balisong cannot, without a lot of stretching, be claimed as a utility knife, so it's not surprising that the law is being interpreted liberally in order to cover balisongs.

And since most of the defendants in these cases were previously convicted felons, the courts were already biased in their view of whether or not they intended to use the blade as a weapon.

 

[tyr_shadowblade]

Unfortunately the balisong cannot, without a lot of stretching, be claimed as a utility knife, so it's not surprising that the law is being interpreted liberally in order to cover balisongs.

3" single-edged BM 32 Morpho was designed specifically as an EDC utility knife, as was the 2" wharncliffe-style Pandayan mini I have in my pocket.

Most balisongs, however, have a 4" weehawk or bowie-style blade, and do not appear utilitarian in design.

 

[Scorn]

Most balisongs, then. However I'm sure the distinction would still be argued in court and the definition of "weapon of like kind" still stretched to fit, especially if the defendant were someone with a previous record.

 

[MORIMOTOM]

the problem with case law, is that it references, often times, only one case. that is, it is specific to that arrest. in civil and criminal matters case law is often cited as a reference when defending or prosecuting a client.

sometimes case law influences actual penal code sections. but that is not an immediate result.

when applying a specific section of city, county, state, or federal law, an officer uses the letter of the law (or the spirit) to determine whether or not to arrest, book, etc.

in california, balisongs are defined in the switchblade section. it appears in va they are not.

though i believe you are not in violation of the state code, i wouldnt recommend you be a test case.

for whatever reason, balisongs are viewed negatively by lawmakers and most law enforcement officers.