Ca: fixed concealed legal ?

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Jun 24, 2013
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I used to think all fixed blades concealed in CA would cause problems with the law and thus I'm not carrying anything fixed at all during every day life.
I like fixed blades but don't want to carry them open on my belt.
Today I went back to the law and it states only concealed dirks and daggers are problematic. A dirk/dagger is something pointed and which can be used to stab and seriously hurt or kill somebody.
Thus a concealed bread knife would clearly not cause any issues a Santoku probably too.
Therefore as long as my fixed blade isn't designed pointed and not able to stab readily, concealing it should be fine.
I'm just thinking about legalising my BK24 by changing it's tip.
But how far can one go with this?
Would something like the spyderco matriarch be legal in a fixed version if all one would do is to cut of its tiny tip? That would still leave a serious weapon which just wouldn't stab very good. That's probably not how the law was intended or maybe they left that loophole for a reason?

What do you think?
Thank you.
 
Yes AusLoX. However this is about concealed carry of fixed blades which according to the law seems to be legal too as long as it's not a dagger/dirk.
 
Seen this question come up quite a few times in this sub-forum.

Short answer: No. All fixed blades, as well as folders with blades already open and locked, are daggers/dirks in the eyes of the law. (CA Penal Code 16470).
 
Seen this question come up quite a few times in this sub-forum.

Short answer: No. All fixed blades, as well as folders with blades already open and locked, are daggers/dirks in the eyes of the law. (CA Penal Code 16470).
Thank you glistam, that helps. :thumbup: But still, the long answer might be more interesting. :-D So please bare with my little wall of text here and it would be cool if you let me know if or where I am wrong.

So here is what I got so far.

--
16470. As used in this part, "dirk" or "dagger" means a knife or other instrument with or without a handguard that is capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury or death.
--

It clearly says "ready use as stabbing weapon". Nothing about a pure cutting tool. A rescue hook would surely not be a stabbing weapon but is still a fixed knife. Or would they say that you could still "stab" that round non edge front into an eye and cause great bodily injury?
Some law homepage online (will provide link if interested) gave bread knives as an example of what is not a stabbing weapon. Of course they could be wrong too and without an actual law case there is no being sure.

Also what makes me less sure of what I thought is that 16470 talks of "knife or other instrument"! which could be used to stab and may cause great bodily injury. It doesn't get more vague than that. You could even stab with a closed folder and with enough force and time cause great injuries. Even a key could be considered a non folding instrument able to inflict serious injuries.

However there is People vs Barrios (1992):
--
When a knife which, like a pocket knife has many possible uses some of which are clearly innocent and utilitarian also has characteristics which in many situations would substantially limit the effectiveness of its use as a stabbing instrument it cannot be held to be a weapon primarily designed for stabbing and this is not a dagger or dirk.
--

That sounds like a knife with its tip removed is not a dagger or dirk.
However in that quote they talk about "weapon primarily designed for stabbing"
While the actual PC 16470 doesn't require an actual design for stabbing and resulting injury and doesn't even mention it being weapon as a requirement for being a dirk or dagger. Potential use as a weapon seems to be bad enough.

So while the PC 16470 is very vague People vs Barrio narrows it down a lot.

Now the question is
What would count more in a new court case? The vague PC or the precedent of People vs Barrio? Or something completely different?

Picture a guy who carries a BK24 which is not designed as a weapon and for sure not "primarily for stabbing" where on top of that he removes its tip to limit remote stabbing capabilities even further.

Also I know if the answer to that isn't bomb proof I wouldn't dream of "testing the law" by trying it out and risk getting "caught". Just couldn't afford the money and time. Still interesting thought experiments if you ask me. :thumbup:
 
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People v Mitchell, 2012 established pretty clearly that a knife just has to be reasonably capable of use as a stabbing weapon. Mitchell had a rather bland 5" fixed blade hidden under his sweatshirt. The court considered any description beyond that to be irrelevant, and similarly ignored the reasons stated by Mitchell for carry, which was self-defense. It is interesting to note that the court also stated that Mitchell could have just carried it unconcealed or obtained a folding knife. People v Bell, 2012 also established a common (but sharp-pointed) kitchen knife is in violation of this law when carried concealed.

So yes, while one might argue that a rescue knife or rafter's knife with an overtly blunt tip might fall outside this law (I can't find anything testing this in the court record), the argument that the mere design was not be intended for stabbing doesn't work. The BK24 has a sharp point on it, and you can stab things with it, so it's a "dirk/dagger." On the plus side, People v. Pellecer, 2013 established that concealed carry of such a knife inside a backpack is not illegal.
 
When in doubt, consult a criminal defense attorney. Any other answer is worth what you pay for it. Idle speculation usually revolves around vague information and an attempted dose of logic. But one must ALWAYS remember --

THE LAW IS LEGAL, NOT LOGICAL.

Logic does not apply with laws, otherwise many of the existing laws everywhere would be null and void.
 
All fixed blades that are concealed on the body are illegal. Folding knives carried open weather concealed or not, are illegal.
 
People v Mitchell, 2012 established pretty clearly that a knife just has to be reasonably capable of use as a stabbing weapon. Mitchell had a rather bland 5" fixed blade hidden under his sweatshirt. The court considered any description beyond that to be irrelevant, and similarly ignored the reasons stated by Mitchell for carry, which was self-defense. It is interesting to note that the court also stated that Mitchell could have just carried it unconcealed or obtained a folding knife. People v Bell, 2012 also established a common (but sharp-pointed) kitchen knife is in violation of this law when carried concealed.

So yes, while one might argue that a rescue knife or rafter's knife with an overtly blunt tip might fall outside this law (I can't find anything testing this in the court record), the argument that the mere design was not be intended for stabbing doesn't work. The BK24 has a sharp point on it, and you can stab things with it, so it's a "dirk/dagger." On the plus side, People v. Pellecer, 2013 established that concealed carry of such a knife inside a backpack is not illegal.
Thank you again Glistam,

People v Mitchel wasn't located in California from what I could read. Would it still apply here?

People vs Barrios happened in CA and there a modestly pointed concealed knife was found to be legal, it seems.
---We agree with the First District for the reasons following. fn. 3 First, the terms "dirk or dagger" are to be strictly construed. (People v. Bain, supra, 5 Cal.3d at p. 850.) Second, it is clear the Forrest court focused only on the characteristics of the weapon as a stabbing instrument, not on the mental state of the defendant in possessing the weapon. If the knife has innocent uses and is of substantially limited effectiveness as a stabbing instrument, it cannot be [7 Cal. App. 4th 506] held to be a dirk or dagger. (People v. Forrest, supra, 67 Cal.2d at p. 481.) Third, the Forrest court warned against enlarging the class of weapons within the category of "dirk or dagger." "No matter how lethal the instrument may be we cannot hold its concealed possession is a crime unless the Legislature has so provided." (People v. Forrest, supra, 67 Cal.2d at p. 481.)

Next we apply the principles discussed above to the knife possessed by Barrios. We do not consider the defendant's statement that he carried the knife for protection. (wow) The knife appears to be a common bread knife. It has one dull serrated edge and one blunt edge. The blade is about eight inches long and the wooden handle about four inches. There are no handguards to prevent the wielder's hand from slipping onto the blade if it was used to stab. The end of the blade is essentially rounded and comes to a modest point only on the serrated edge. The blade itself flexes noticeably when the point is applied to an object.

This knife has characteristics which substantially limit its effectiveness as a stabbing instrument. It has no sharp edges, no stabbing point, no handguards, and no stiff blade. It is not a dirk or dagger as a matter of law. (People v. Forrest, supra, 67 Cal.2d at p. 481.) The court erred by denying defendant's motion to exclude the knife.

This case provides an excellent example of the mischief wrought by application of the Grubb principles to dirk or dagger cases. By allowing the jury to consider the defendant's intent in possessing the knife, fn. 4 the court permitted a common bread knife to be transformed into a dirk or dagger.
---
Of course no stabbing point , no sharp edge, no guard and flexible blade narrows down the possibilities however they don't state that all three have to apply to not qualify as a dagger/dirk. I wish they would have specified that for example no tip alone would suffice even if the blade is stiff and sharp.

Thanks also for the People v Pellecer. Carrying one in a backpack in Ca would be great compromise for me.
Probably the next thread by somebody might be about putting a fixed knife inside a tiny backpack and stuffing it in his pant pocket. :o
 
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When in doubt, consult a criminal defense attorney. Any other answer is worth what you pay for it. Idle speculation usually revolves around vague information and an attempted dose of logic. But one must ALWAYS remember --

THE LAW IS LEGAL, NOT LOGICAL.

Logic does not apply with laws, otherwise many of the existing laws everywhere would be null and void.

True logic doesn't apply in law and many other things.:p
Of course a criminal defense attorney will be able to remove some doubts but can I sue him if I get jailed based on his advice? Still wouldn't help me if I have to stay behind bars. Surely he will try to err on the side of caution when giving advice and thus some people might not excercise a right which the law might allow. If I would be an attorney I would simply say concealed fixed ones are not allowed. Done. Either because I want to make sure the client is extra safe from legal trouble or because its faster than finding and reading all applicable cases. Thus the lawyer will give a kind of better advice than the internets but its still not 100% certain.
From some other law case (car accident) in the family I know that its best to do your own research to point your lawyer in the right direction. After all they are just humans too and have lots of other stuff to do.
Same here. We are affected more personally and thus more inclined to do the leg work. Then with concrete ideas, some maybe even out of the box, one can go to a lawyer and ask them specific questions. For example what do you think how much wiggle room leaves People vs Barrio to the interpretation of concealed dagger/dirk. Without us internet "experts" the lawyer might not have even looked into this case and its implications. He will probably still say wiggly unpointed dull knives are supposed to be fine but if I were you I wouldn't try it.
:D
 
I discussed this topic with my attorney a while back. It was just conversation, I wasn't actually interested in carrying a blunted concealed fixed-blade.

Here is what my lawyer basically told me- There are fixed-blades that are clearly not designed for stabbing, and some that would not make effective stabbing weapons (cleaver-type blades, some skinning knives, some diving knives, etc). And my attorney was confident that if one of his clients were in possession of one, and if they were arrested and charged with carrying a concealed "dirk" or "dagger", that he could either get the charge dismissed, or win at trial*, or win on appeal*.

His reasoning was- If the knife clearly does not meet California's legal definition of a "dirk" or "dagger" (stabbing weapon), then there is a very real possibility of the charge being dismissed. Prosecutors tend to have a heavy case load and don't want to waste time trying to prosecute a charge if they don't think they will win, or if they think it will be reversed on appeal. And if the defendant has no criminal record, and wasn't engaged in any criminal activity at the time of their arrest, that gives the prosecutor more incentive not to take the gamble.

My attorney also told me that the California appeals court has a history of being hyper-technical when it comes to knives and their design. He was confident that a knife which was clearly not designed as a stabbing weapon, and clearly would not make an effective stabbing weapon, would not be ruled a "stabbing weapon" by the appeals court, and thus the conviction would be overturned. This is all something that a good defense attorney would relate to the prosecutor.

He also explained to me that here in California a prosecutor has three burdens of proof that they need to meet in order to obtain a sustainable conviction for carrying a concealed "dirk" or "dagger". There is case law on this but I forget the name at the moment-

1. The item (not necessarily a knife) must meet the legal definition of a "dirk" or "dagger".

2. The person carrying the item had to acknowledge in some way that they were carrying the item as a weapon, OR that they knew the item could be used as a weapon. However, the prosecutor does NOT have to prove that the person had intent to USE it as a weapon.

3. The person had to intentionally try to conceal the item on their person.

In regards to #1, the appeals court rejected a particular knife as a "stabbing weapon" because the judges did not believe that the knife would make for an effective weapon to stab people. My attorney believes that they would feel the same way about a knife with no point whatsoever (like the ones mentioned earlier).

In regards to #2, there are specific exceptions in the case law for things like- a person who was using a knife for work, stuck the knife in their pocket, and forgot it was there, and it got covered by a shirt, etc. Or, someone who wrapped a kitchen knife in a paper towel, and placed the knife in their jacket pocket to use it at a later time for food prep (as I recall, these are actual examples provided by the appeals judges). Another example would be someone who puts a pair of scissors in their pocket, or sticks a screwdriver in their waistband. Basically, the judges wanted to provide protection for people who were carrying items that could be used as stabbing weapons, but who were carrying them for purposes that are both practical and innocent.

In regards to #3, as I recall, the appeals judges provided specific exceptions to protect people who were carrying an item that could be used as a stabbing weapon, but the item became unintentionally concealed by clothing (like wind blowing a shirt).

So, as my attorney explained it to me, as long as a person was carrying a fixed-blade concealed that was clearly NOT designed as a stabbing weapon, and did not appear to be reasonably capable of being an effective stabbing weapon, and as long as the person carrying it did not in any way refer to it as a weapon, or even acknowledge that it could be used as a weapon, that he could eventually* get the person off.

But here's the thing*- there is no certainty in the criminal justice system. Although my attorney is confident, his confidence is not the same as certainty. He readily acknowledges that no matter how good a defense attorney is, that they cannot control what a judge, prosecutor, or jury will do. And no matter what the case law says, some prosecutor might try to challenge it, and a judge might let them.

I once asked my attorney a question about knives, and I asked if there was any case law, and he answered "No. Do YOU want to become the case law?" My answer was "No".

Here's the advice my attorney gave me- Don't test the law. Even if you eventually prevail in court, it will cost you a hell of a lot. It will cost you a lot of money, a lot of stress and aggravation, and a lot of time. You could miss a lot of work and lose your job, miss a lot of school and not graduate, and you could spend some, or a lot of that time behind bars. Or, you might lose altogether.

So, don't carry ANY fixed-blade, or screwdriver, or any other seemingly "dangerous" item concealed upon your person if it could be used as a "stabbing weapon". And before anyone asks, no, a pen or pencil would not be considered a "stabbing weapon" if carried concealed.
 
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True logic doesn't apply in law and many other things.:p
Of course a criminal defense attorney will be able to remove some doubts but can I sue him if I get jailed based on his advice? Still wouldn't help me if I have to stay behind bars. Surely he will try to err on the side of caution when giving advice and thus some people might not excercise a right which the law might allow. If I would be an attorney I would simply say concealed fixed ones are not allowed. Done. Either because I want to make sure the client is extra safe from legal trouble or because its faster than finding and reading all applicable cases. Thus the lawyer will give a kind of better advice than the internets but its still not 100% certain.
From some other law case (car accident) in the family I know that its best to do your own research to point your lawyer in the right direction. After all they are just humans too and have lots of other stuff to do.
Same here. We are affected more personally and thus more inclined to do the leg work. Then with concrete ideas, some maybe even out of the box, one can go to a lawyer and ask them specific questions. For example what do you think how much wiggle room leaves People vs Barrio to the interpretation of concealed dagger/dirk. Without us internet "experts" the lawyer might not have even looked into this case and its implications. He will probably still say wiggly unpointed dull knives are supposed to be fine but if I were you I wouldn't try it.
:D

I just wanted to mention something- Don't assume that it would be easy, or even possible, to sue a defense attorney for giving you bad advice. The chances of getting another lawyer to take the case are very low. And unless you have solid proof of malpractice, like a lawful recording of your lawyer giving you bad advice, or several unbiased and credible witness who heard your lawyer give you bad advice, your lawsuit would be thrown out of court.

Without solid proof of malpractice it would be your word against your lawyers. And who do you think a judge is more likely to believe. And if you were convicted, the word of a convicted criminal isn't going to mean much against the word of a lawyer.

As far as trying to find a lawyer who is willing to sue another lawyer, remember that just like in many other professions, lawyers tend to stick together, protect each other, and cover for each other.
 
I just wanted to mention something- Don't assume that it would be easy, or even possible, to sue a defense attorney for giving you bad advice. The chances of getting another lawyer to take the case are very low. And unless you have solid proof of malpractice, like a lawful recording of your lawyer giving you bad advice, or several unbiased and credible witness who heard your lawyer give you bad advice, your lawsuit would be thrown out of court.

Without solid proof of malpractice it would be your word against your lawyers. And who do you think a judge is more likely to believe. And if you were convicted, the word of a convicted criminal isn't going to mean much against the word of a lawyer.

As far as trying to find a lawyer who is willing to sue another lawyer, remember that just like in many other professions, lawyers tend to stick together, protect each other, and cover for each other.

What I wanted to express was that even advice from a lawyer isn't 100% foolproof. Same like you said in your earlier post. Of course suing him would not help me if I still have to stay behind bars based on his advice. They probably word every advice a bit open and with wiggle room, not unlike scientists. "The law and cases so far suggest that most likely you will not be prosecuted for this and that if you do this." Of course I understand that they are lawyers and there is almost no way they say anything without having a way to back out.
 
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I discussed this topic with my attorney a while back. It was just conversation, I wasn't actually interested in carrying a blunted concealed fixed-blade.

Here is what my lawyer basically told me- There are fixed-blades that are clearly not designed for stabbing, and some that would not make effective stabbing weapons (cleaver-type blades, some skinning knives, some diving knives, etc). And my attorney was confident that if one of his clients were in possession of one, and if they were arrested and charged with carrying a concealed "dirk" or "dagger", that he could either get the charge dismissed, or win at trial*, or win on appeal*.

His reasoning was- If the knife clearly does not meet California's legal definition of a "dirk" or "dagger" (stabbing weapon), then there is a very real possibility of the charge being dismissed. Prosecutors tend to have a heavy case load and don't want to waste time trying to prosecute a charge if they don't think they will win, or if they think it will be reversed on appeal. And if the defendant has no criminal record, and wasn't engaged in any criminal activity at the time of their arrest, that gives the prosecutor more incentive not to take the gamble.

My attorney also told me that the California appeals court has a history of being hyper-technical when it comes to knives and their design. He was confident that a knife which was clearly not designed as a stabbing weapon, and clearly would not make an effective stabbing weapon, would not be ruled a "stabbing weapon" by the appeals court, and thus the conviction would be overturned. This is all something that a good defense attorney would relate to the prosecutor.

He also explained to me that here in California a prosecutor has three burdens of proof that they need to meet in order to obtain a sustainable conviction for carrying a concealed "dirk" or "dagger". There is case law on this but I forget the name at the moment-

1. The item (not necessarily a knife) must meet the legal definition of a "dirk" or "dagger".

2. The person carrying the item had to acknowledge in some way that they were carrying the item as a weapon, OR that they knew the item could be used as a weapon. However, the prosecutor does NOT have to prove that the person had intent to USE it as a weapon.

3. The person had to intentionally try to conceal the item on their person.

In regards to #1, the appeals court rejected a particular knife as a "stabbing weapon" because the judges did not believe that the knife would make for an effective weapon to stab people. My attorney believes that they would feel the same way about a knife with no point whatsoever (like the ones mentioned earlier).

In regards to #2, there are specific exceptions in the case law for things like- a person who was using a knife for work, stuck the knife in their pocket, and forgot it was there, and it got covered by a shirt, etc. Or, someone who wrapped a kitchen knife in a paper towel, and placed the knife in their jacket pocket to use it at a later time for food prep (as I recall, these are actual examples provided by the appeals judges). Another example would be someone who puts a pair of scissors in their pocket, or sticks a screwdriver in their waistband. Basically, the judges wanted to provide protection for people who were carrying items that could be used as stabbing weapons, but who were carrying them for purposes that are both practical and innocent.

In regards to #3, as I recall, the appeals judges provided specific exceptions to protect people who were carrying an item that could be used as a stabbing weapon, but the item became unintentionally concealed by clothing (like wind blowing a shirt).

So, as my attorney explained it to me, as long as a person was carrying a fixed-blade concealed that was clearly NOT designed as a stabbing weapon, and did not appear to be reasonably capable of being an effective stabbing weapon, and as long as the person carrying it did not in any way refer to it as a weapon, or even acknowledge that it could be used as a weapon, that he could eventually* get the person off.

But here's the thing*- there is no certainty in the criminal justice system. Although my attorney is confident, his confidence is not the same as certainty. He readily acknowledges that no matter how good a defense attorney is, that they cannot control what a judge, prosecutor, or jury will do. And no matter what the case law says, some prosecutor might try to challenge it, and a judge might let them.

I once asked my attorney a question about knives, and I asked if there was any case law, and he answered "No. Do YOU want to become the case law?" My answer was "No".

Here's the advice my attorney gave me- Don't test the law. Even if you eventually prevail in court, it will cost you a hell of a lot. It will cost you a lot of money, a lot of stress and aggravation, and a lot of time. You could miss a lot of work and lose your job, miss a lot of school and not graduate, and you could spend some, or a lot of that time behind bars. Or, you might lose altogether.

So, don't carry ANY fixed-blade, or screwdriver, or any other seemingly "dangerous" item concealed upon your person if it could be used as a "stabbing weapon". And before anyone asks, no, a pen or pencil would not be considered a "stabbing weapon" if carried concealed.

Thank you Killgar,
for your super detailed response with lots of professional knowledge.
It seems your attorney thinks the same as what I guessed from reading so far. Of course a LEO might not know everything, think a bit differently or just not feel qualified to determine what knife could be used for stabbing or not. Thus there could be a lot of trouble, which is not worth it even if at the end its likely to result in a victory in court, just like you said.
Would it still be falling under "testing the law"? It seems to have been tested already by the guy with the concealed bread knife. The only problem I see is that the guys in the field are not aware of this case (like most of us here until now) and might still arrest people for having a little fixed fruit knife in a pant pocket.

Either way I'm not risking anything on purpose but knowing what you said I would freak out a bit less if I forget a fixed tip-less knife in my pocket, though I doubt that will ever happen.:thumbup:
 
Hmmm,
Makes me wonder.
I always carry a Half Horn Samikniv on a belt.
Nobody knows what the hell it is to recognise as a knife. (actually a few folks will recognise... But thats not the point)
Maybe that considers as concealed ?

Going one further,
An openly carried easily accessible scabbard what totally encloses a knife & is not readily recognised as a knife carrying appliance ?? Of course that includes the rucksack example...

Custom trouser leg what carries a knife,
One could claim the scabbard is clearly exposed, Just happens to be incorporated into trousers ??

Either scenario, I suppose if a portion of haft for example is plainly exposed, It no longer considers concealed...

Anyway, I find all the knife law blabber minor passing interest.
Outside obvious restricted zones, I always carry. Been to many of the "Repressive Knifelaw" areas too.
Behave myself, & 45 some years now, never a problem.
 
Just a quick follow-up
People v Mitchell wasn't located in California from what I could read. Would it still apply here?
I think you're looking at the wrong Mitchell. I can't link to it directly, but the defendant's full name is "Kenyatta Quinn Mitchell" and the opinion was filed on October 11, 2012, in The Court Of Appeal Of California, Fourth Appellate District.
 
Somehow I completely missed post #9 :confused:

I'm not familiar with P. v. Barrios, but it looks like it is very much on point (no pun intended;)). I'll have to look that one up when I get the time, it looks like good reading.

I don't recall if my attorney ever mentioned it to me, probably did and I just don't remember. Too many case laws to remember.

P. v. Barrios appears to be a perfect example of how hyper-technical the appeals judges are when in comes to the design of a knife and whether or not it would make an effective "stabbing weapon".

I tend to have a very low opinion of the California appeals court, I've seen them make what I consider to be some really bad decisions. But when it comes to knives, and their design, the court has made some very good decisions (like P. v. Barrios).

Thanks for posting that case law Jens Schuetz. :thumbup:
 
Just a quick follow-up

I think you're looking at the wrong Mitchell. I can't link to it directly, but the defendant's full name is "Kenyatta Quinn Mitchell" and the opinion was filed on October 11, 2012, in The Court Of Appeal Of California, Fourth Appellate District.
I don't know how his knife was designed, but Mitchell really screwed himself. The combination of carrying a concealed fixed-blade, AND admitting that it was for use as a weapon (self-defense) pretty much handed the prosecutor a conviction on a silver platter, and plenty of reason for the appeals court to deny his appeal.
 
I don't know how his knife was designed, but Mitchell really screwed himself. The combination of carrying a concealed fixed-blade, AND admitting that it was for use as a weapon (self-defense) pretty much handed the prosecutor a conviction on a silver platter, and plenty of reason for the appeals court to deny his appeal.

Just a quick follow-up

I think you're looking at the wrong Mitchell. I can't link to it directly, but the defendant's full name is "Kenyatta Quinn Mitchell" and the opinion was filed on October 11, 2012, in The Court Of Appeal Of California, Fourth Appellate District.
Wow. He reads like a scary guy with all his prior violence related convictions.
I also read about the case here http://caselaw.findlaw.com/ca-court-of-appeal/1610566.html
They really tried a lot of ways to wiggle out of this but failed. What they didn't try at all was to question if his knife was actually a dirk/dagger. The nature of his 5 inch blade fixed knife probably didn't leave much room for interpretation, otherwise I'm sure the defense would have tried that too.


Is it normal that court cases don't mention the exact model of the item in question? Since its evidence they probably have a picture of it on record. Is there an easy way to acces something like this online or request a paper copy, maybe under freedom of information or the like? Since the whole case is public I cant imagine that it should be different for the actual evidence.
 
Is it normal that court cases don't mention the exact model of the item in question? Since its evidence they probably have a picture of it on record. Is there an easy way to access something like this online or request a paper copy, maybe under freedom of information or the like? Since the whole case is public I cant imagine that it should be different for the actual evidence.

It's very common for them not to mention the actual model, especially since most knife cases involved cheap junk blades sometimes with no actual markings, and photos typically are not included in a court opinion (except in one notable Pennsylvania case, which was really helpful). But the knife should have been tagged as evidence and photographed. Whether you have a right to see it, I'm not sure, and it depends where the photo is. Court records are normally accessible to the public if you physically go there and fill out the appropriate form, but those also don't necessarily include photos. I know as I've going case hunting over this way in MD.

Regarding Mitchell having priors, this is something I always bring up and almost feel tired of doing it: Every defendant in every knife case I've read is a low-life, and did something stupid to get the cop's attention. All of them! Cops don't pat down people at random who aren't doing anything; that's illegal. This is what makes finding good case law so hard. Truly well-mannered innocent people carrying knives that may or may not be illegal simply don't get caught. In thousands of cases I've seen it once, and it was because the cops mistook the defendant for someone else. That cop got his sorry posterior dragged into federal court and was found guilty of false arrest.
 
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