I have a couple of questions about making cable damascus. First i have had quite a problem cleaning it out fully from all the grease that it comes manufactured with. Let me back up. I am using brand new 1 1/2 wire. What is the best way of getting it out? I have burnt it out in my gas forge but it seems that there is alot of "ash" left in the wire. I have not tried to forge weld it yet as is because i was worried about inclusions from this substance. Will the flux take care of this? Is there a better method of removing it other then a wire brush and some elbow grease? I will be firing up later this afternoon so any help would be wonderful.
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Cable Damascus Questions?
- Thread starter Gting
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I like to dissolve grease with gasoline as a solvent.
It's not as cheap as it once was.
It's not as cheap as it once was.
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Carburetor cleaner, brake cleaner, degreaser from the auto parts store, pressure washer, all should work. Ideally, stick it in a parts washer for a while. I was advised to brush it while untwisted then flux and twist back. Ariel Salaverria has a neat method of welding it inside a piece of stainless steel pipe.
Just repeating what I've been told.
Just repeating what I've been told.
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith
ilmarinen - MODERATOR
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https://sites.google.com/site/vorpalcustomknives/shop-techniques-3/how-to-make-cable-damascus
That is a good place to start.
That is a good place to start.
Thanks a lot. I have actually looked at both of those before. I will see what works best. I read on another thread about getting it red hot then quenching in a borax/water solution. It is supposed to help dislodge debris from the rope. What is the benefits of using anhydrous borax over 20 mule from the grocery store? I will try a could of different methods this weekend and see what works best. I got 8 feet of EEPS 2" wire rope for free. lets hope I don't ruin any of it. Thanks a lot for all the help. This forum is a wealth of information, I have learned more here then I ever thought was possible.
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anhydrous borax will soak in and cover each wire better than regular 20 mule team. I don't worry about the grease too much. I heat to a red heat, put anhydrous on, heat some more, put one end in a vice, and with a pipe wrench, open the cable up and cover with anhydrous, then twist tight as hard as I can.
I use a press to gently forge the cable together, then go to my 100lb power hammer.
I use a press to gently forge the cable together, then go to my 100lb power hammer.
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New cable is not too picky about being welded. I've welded it fine by just heating, fluxing, heating, twisting then fluxing, heating, welding. Rotating it a bit while doing the initial welds helps, then I work it square, octagonal, re-square to make sure the wires have been welded from all directions.
The new grease just burns out, and to some degree I think it even acts like a hydrocarbon flux to HELP the weld...
The new grease just burns out, and to some degree I think it even acts like a hydrocarbon flux to HELP the weld...
That's all great information guys.
Tom- those knives are gorgeous. I hope I can make something that looks that good. Maybe I will post a WIP so show the way I make the billet. Its all going to be by hand cause I don't have a power hammer or a press. Again thanks for the help.
Tom- those knives are gorgeous. I hope I can make something that looks that good. Maybe I will post a WIP so show the way I make the billet. Its all going to be by hand cause I don't have a power hammer or a press. Again thanks for the help.
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith
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A few additional tips I will offer are:
Most folks don't weld the cable hot enough or long enough. Just because the outside wires are fused does not mean the middle is solid. Weld, weld, weld.....and then weld again. You will hear the change in sound as the "Thunk" of an unwelded billet becomes a "Ting" of a solid billet. Also, all darker areas and stripes will be gone from the billet when all the cable strands are fused solidly.
I do as Salem said - weld it solid, them make a square, then forge in the corners to make an octagon, and then back to round. All those are done at welding heat. Once solid and "ringing", I twist it again for a tighter pattern, and then forge out the billet.
Twisting it tight while welding is very important. You have to tighten the twist every heat, as the forging makes the wrap unfurl. A modified 12" pipe wrench ( add a second handle) is a tool no damascus maker should be without. A nearby vise to lock the end into is good, but if you can find an old pipe vise at a yard sale, they work extremely well for twisting any damascus billet. I use a flip over type like this one:http://www.wynnstools.com/zh-CN/displayproduct.php?id=390
20 mule team borax is hydrated borax. The anhydrous stuff has had all the water driven out by heat. Left sitting around long enough the anhydrous borax will re-hydrate if not tightly sealed. The 20 mule Team borax is fine to use, but it bubbles and pops a bit more as the water is driven off. If available and affordable, the anhydrous is a bit better, but the common washing borax will work just fine. You can dehydrate common borax by baking it in the oven for 2 hours at 400-500F. Some folks also add anywhere from 10% to 50% boric acid to the borax flux mix .
Most folks don't weld the cable hot enough or long enough. Just because the outside wires are fused does not mean the middle is solid. Weld, weld, weld.....and then weld again. You will hear the change in sound as the "Thunk" of an unwelded billet becomes a "Ting" of a solid billet. Also, all darker areas and stripes will be gone from the billet when all the cable strands are fused solidly.
I do as Salem said - weld it solid, them make a square, then forge in the corners to make an octagon, and then back to round. All those are done at welding heat. Once solid and "ringing", I twist it again for a tighter pattern, and then forge out the billet.
Twisting it tight while welding is very important. You have to tighten the twist every heat, as the forging makes the wrap unfurl. A modified 12" pipe wrench ( add a second handle) is a tool no damascus maker should be without. A nearby vise to lock the end into is good, but if you can find an old pipe vise at a yard sale, they work extremely well for twisting any damascus billet. I use a flip over type like this one:http://www.wynnstools.com/zh-CN/displayproduct.php?id=390
20 mule team borax is hydrated borax. The anhydrous stuff has had all the water driven out by heat. Left sitting around long enough the anhydrous borax will re-hydrate if not tightly sealed. The 20 mule Team borax is fine to use, but it bubbles and pops a bit more as the water is driven off. If available and affordable, the anhydrous is a bit better, but the common washing borax will work just fine. You can dehydrate common borax by baking it in the oven for 2 hours at 400-500F. Some folks also add anywhere from 10% to 50% boric acid to the borax flux mix .
I made the first billet today. It came out great. Thanks to your help. The twisting really seemed to keep it together. Made it a solid bar before i even hit it with a hammer it seemed. I still have to profile and grind everything but it looks like it wi be a usable knife for sure.
Please don't use brake cleaner!!
It has compounds that can turn to Phosgene when heated, and will destroy your lungs.
I don't know for a fact what other common cleaners will do this, but I do know for a fact that at least some brake cleaners are terribly dangerous to use, if you apply heat to residues.
This happened in our blacksmithing group, the poor man will most likely never regain good function of his lungs.
It has compounds that can turn to Phosgene when heated, and will destroy your lungs.
I don't know for a fact what other common cleaners will do this, but I do know for a fact that at least some brake cleaners are terribly dangerous to use, if you apply heat to residues.
This happened in our blacksmithing group, the poor man will most likely never regain good function of his lungs.
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Gting, I'll tell you how I did mine in the picture. I use Muratic acid. I immerse the blade in the acid for five minute, take it out, dip in a bucket of water, then take it to another bucket of water and sand with a 4"x4" piece of 800 grit sandpaper. I repeat this process till the pattern shows like I want. It may take 8-10 cycles. When the pattern shows like I want it, I spray with windex, sand with the worn out piece of sandpaper, then wash with water and dry with a paper towel. Then I apply Birchwood Casey cold blueing. I apply it with a cotton dauber and keep it on the blade for one minute. Then I use the same worn out piece of sandpaper and once again sand the blade. Wash with water, dry, and spray with W-D 40, or some other oil to protect the blade.
Don't use the Muratic acid indoors. Try not to breath it.
Others will have different ways to etch, and many like Ferric Chloride.
It would be nice if those who have a different way of etching would show pictures of how their methods turned out.
Don't use the Muratic acid indoors. Try not to breath it.
Others will have different ways to etch, and many like Ferric Chloride.
It would be nice if those who have a different way of etching would show pictures of how their methods turned out.
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I use the same ferric chloride mix as I use on my other damascus and sometimes for hamon etching, one part ferric chloride to four parts water. It takes longer, but you get a nice sharp etch. You will have to experiment with your etch times and number of cycles. A starting point would be three cycles, 5 min. at a time. It could take a lot more than that. Etch until the whole blade is pretty dark/black, pull out and neutralize with ammonia/windex/tsp. Scrub down with 0000 steel wool to remove oxides, etch again if it could use improvement as many times as necessary. Cleaning the oxides off after your etch cycles allows the etchant to eat the steel underneath at a fast rate again, speeding up the formation of "topography." You want to etch to a little depth, so that when you etch the last time you can leave the oxides on the blade- then boild the blade in baking soda water for 20 min and let cool. This will set your oxides dark and durable, so that you can put some 1500 or 2000 paper on a block and lightly sand the surface off to get shiny highs/black lows for a pattern with definition.
I don't have pics of much in the way of cable knives. Not done any since I got my new camera... here's an oldy but a goody. Cable pins too!
I don't have pics of much in the way of cable knives. Not done any since I got my new camera... here's an oldy but a goody. Cable pins too!
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I use filthy old cable and leave the grease in it. I start with boric acid for a flux, and once it gets hot I switch to 20mule team with boric acid mixed in. I use the IG weld method of welding with the twist, and keep welding until I feel a solid unit under the hammer.
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