Cable Damascus

[Augus7us]

Hey Guys,

I picked up some plow cable from the Quad State last year and finally got around to trying to forge it into a billet. I hammered it out fairly flat then took it to the grinder to remove the scale and start to square it up. Once I ground into it I noticed a few areas in the middle that didn't weld completely. This make sense because I was working the billet from each end and I was having trouble getting a good heat in the center as it grew in length. I'm currently using my coal forge for this project.

So a few questions

Can I throw it back in the forge and weld the areas that did not take? Logically this seems ok but I'm not an expert in this area so tell me what I'm missing or why it wouldn't work?

Fluxing and using coal has the negative side affect of coal dust and clinkers sticking to the stock. I feel if I brush it off before I put the hammer to it I'm removing flux. Fluxing right before I set the weld makes me think I'll lose too much heat while the flux settles in and I take it to the anvil. What's the best method to avoid all the crud and still get a good heat and thorough coverage with the flux?

When making cable damascus do you typically just forge it into a billet or do you restack a few times? I know you can stack it after forging it out but I'm wondering what is typically done?

Thanks

-Clint

 

[A C Richards]

When I do cable outside of a can I do the following.

First burn out cable. Run forge low and slow with the cable in the fire. What the goal is here is burn as much oil and such out of the bundle. Then I take the major strands apart and scrub off all the residue left behind. Put it all back together. Get your fire set up to forge weld. Put one end in the fire, get it red to red orange and flux that end. Put it back int he fire. Heat slowly bringing the heat up to welding temp. Try to get the inside to come up to temp as well, in fact it is a must. Once there remove fling off slag and hammer weld the end square. If you wanted you could have arc welded the ends to help hold it together. If the weld took make it nice and square. It should look like one solid piece but just the end. Next do the other end. Once both ends are welded put the whole bundle into the fire. Heat slowly again to red orange. Flux then back in the fire. Slowly bring it up to welding temp again but this time it is the while thing. When at temp take it out and twist it tight welding it together. Do this until you are satisfied the billet is welded fully. Now you can start working with the hammer. Flux, heat, then hammer. I like making it square first. You will feel it coming together. It gets stiffer under the hammer as it continues to set up. Forge it out and see if your have any open spots. If you do you may want to fold. If not forge a blade.

You do not want to fold too many times as this will wash out the pattern. If you want to experiment find some right and left twist cable. Weld up the cable as normal to the twist. Then combine right, left twisted strands alternating. I used to do 5 bars. One in the center then right, left, right, left around the outside. This gives you more material to work with. It also changes the pattern significantly.

Play with it. It can be a PITA with the inclusions though. Just keep at it and it will come sooner or later.

 

[Augus7us]

Thanks Chuck, I never thought about finding one in the opposite rotation. I'll be at this years Quadstate and will keep my eye out.

So you are achieving some level of weld when you twist? I just thought that step was to tighten it up a little and didn't bring mine up to welding heat for that. I have another 3 or 4 feet of the stuff so next one I will do that.

So it sounds like you are or have used a coal forge to do this. When you flux and put it back in the fire and come up to weld temps are you brushing all the coal dust and scraps off before putting the hammer to it? Or do you just hammer it right out of the forge and mash the coal chunks and other hitchhikers together and the flux blows it all out? I get really fine Pocahontas type pea coal and it wants to cover my billet when its fluxed!

Thanks Again

-Clint.

 

[A C Richards]

You need to build your fire up and make a nest. I used to make a beehive. Cook it until the center was coked out then open it up. The top of the beehive reflects some of the heat back into the cavity. you should be using the coke to heat rather than coal. Add more coal onto the top as needed. It is kind of hard to describe it.

The twist does weld the center to some degree. This helps bring things together and after a bit it will keep dust and crap out of the billet. I do brush off the flux after I pull it out but very quickly. You need to get at it while it is still hot.

I do not do any cable open anymore. I box it and add steel powder. I just don't like the inclusions that you have found are common in cable damascus. The box and powder have eliminated this problem for me. I can get some pretty interesting results.

Small utility loaf cut cable in a can.

Twisted Cable in a can.

Loaf cut Bowie

 

[Axeman58]

Chuck, those are some fantastic examples of cable Damascus knives! I've never done cable in a can, but after seeing your pics, I'd love to see a WIP on it. That twisted cable knife blows me away. Well done sir.

 

[no.4shot]

That loaf cut is outstanding on the Bowie. The matching guard is a nice touch too.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk

 

[JTknives]

You know chuck befor this thread I never liked cable Damascus. To me I did not care for the pattern and it was not worth the work compared to what you get with normal layer Damascus. But now I think you might have changed my mind a bit

 

[A C Richards]

Cable is very versatile. If you stack it right you can get a combination of the twist and the flowers. I have done it like twice. Do not have any pics unfortunately. Just the old twist single weld cable can be boring especially if you don't twist it really tight.

Here is one I helped a friend of mine make.

And another super tight twist.

These two knives came from the same billet as the small loaf cut knife in the first picture. This was just 2 patterning techniques. There are many others that will produce additional looks.

 

[Axeman58]

Cable is very versatile. If you stack it right you can get a combination of the twist and the flowers. I have done it like twice. Do not have any pics unfortunately. Just the old twist single weld cable can be boring especially if you don't twist it really tight.

Here is one I helped a friend of mine make.

And another super tight twist.

These two knives came from the same billet as the small loaf cut knife in the first picture. This was just 2 patterning techniques. There are many others that will produce additional looks.

Are there any resources (video, WIP, etc.) you can recommend for a person to get pointers on these techniques? Thanks.

 

[A C Richards]

I will see what I can put together. I have some pictures of different processes but not all with cable. I am still surprised many times when I play with the cable. That last picture was one of them. I was expecting a twist but not nearly that fine a pattern. I will go through my pics and get them ready. Will probably post more tonight or put it on my website.

 

[Axeman58]

Having never done any forge weld in a can, I'm very curiously awaiting these pics!

 

[brodbeckrt]

What do you mean by forge welding in a can? I am new to this.

Those are some incredible patterns!

 

[Matt River]

can excludes atmospehere and contaminants, allows use of patterns filled with powdered steel, other benefits

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

Damascus can be made by traditional stacking and folding in the open forge method.

It also can be made in a canister (can) which is a box or tube filled with the steel pieces, and often filled in with powdered steel. This is welded shut to keep air our and then heated and forged into a solid billet. The can is then ground away and the damascus made into a bar by many styles of manipulation. Basic stainless damascus is made like this, as well as more elaborate patterns that would be impossible to do by stacking and folding.

In the most extreme methods, the steel is waterjet cut in shapes and the shapes are put in the can. The powder is used to fill all voids, and the resulting billet has the shapes all over the surface. This is how they get skulls, horses, etc. on damascus blades.

 

[Tom Lewis]

Chuck, that's beautiful! How do you etch it?

 

[A C Richards]

Tom,

I etch as normal with fcl but pretty deep. Need to be able ! to feel the topography easily. I then use maganese phosphate parkerizing. Then sand off the tops to create to extreme contrast.

 

[Tom Lewis]

Thanks! awesome work!

 

[A C Richards]

I will post a quick WIP here on cable in a can. I do not have pictures of the burning out of the cable. Basically cut you cable to the length of the can minus the end caps. My end caps are 3/8 inch. Here is a picture of the cut cable and a 4x4x.125 square tube.

After cutting enough to fit into the can as tight as possible do a burn out of the cable. Run the forge low, like in the 1200-1500f range if possible. The idea is to burn the oil/tar/creosote mixture out without getting the cable too hot. There will be a lot of flame out the front of the forge if you are using propane. Let it burn until the flames pretty much disappear.

Now break the cable down to the major strands. Do not take it to the small strands or you will have a huge mess that will never go back together. I either sand blast or wire brush the strands to remove as much of the residue as possible. Then reassemble the cable. I usually do one at a time so they go back together easier. Though they will fit but if the lengths are not exact you can have a mismatch.

I assume the box has already been prepped. I usually use 6-3/4 inch long box so I can cut 6 inch cable. In the picture above you can just see the bottom has already been welded in. I did line this box with stainless steel foil. I have found it does not really do much beyond make it easier to see when you have gotten all the can removed. I usually do not use the foil.

Next stack the cable into the box.

Get it as tight as possible. This billet did not get as tight a fit as I would have liked. But I went ahead with the project. I will use either a different size box or diameter of cable to get a tighter fit.

Next select the powder you would like. I opted for the 4800KC on this one. I wanted a bright background.

I use the fine mesh, as fine as I can get. The best billets I have done were with powder I had gotten that was more like talcum powder. I really packed into every void possible. It gave a very cool pattern.

 

[12345678910]

What are the other bars you have in there ?

 

[A C Richards]

Next pack the powder in again as tight as possible.

Tap the sides lightly and keep filling until you can't get any more in. I then top it off and put the loose cap on and put it in my press. I press the powder in as tight as it will go and some of the powder pushes up and out the sides of the can.

Now weld on the cap.

I now weld on a handle, usually a piece of 3/4 inch rebar. If you are a good welder you may want to drill a very small hole into the can to prevent over-pressurization and a possible kaboom. If you look at the upper right corner of my box I did not quite compete the weld. Just in case I did a good job on the rest of the welds. I am sure someone will be thinking did I squirt in some oil or a piece of paper. There is enough residual oil and organic material in the box to burn off any O2 remaining inside. I do not put anything inside my cans other than the steel.

Now just get it hot like a normal billet of Damascus. I like to let it soak for at least 30 minutes after the temp has normalized inside the forge. Then work it down evenly on all sides. You will feel it come together/stiffer under the press.

Keep working until you get it to about 2"sq.

At this point you need to decide what you want to do. You will probably want to grind off the box. By this time it the remaining box is really thin. Especially if you began with 1/8" wall. You will have less than 1/32 to grind of. If you used foil it will be easy to see when you break through. Now you can pattern it lust like a regular billet. Twist, W'd, or 4 way. I do the 4-way to do the loaf cut and get the flowers out the side of the blade. I will 4 way then maybe another 4 way and a side stack to get the length I want. This is where experimenting can be fun. Light twist, easy twist or whatever your heart desires.

This has been a really quick explanation of how I do cable in a can. The pictures are from a couple of different canned damascus projects but basically the same procedures go into each. If you have any questions I will be happy to try and answer them.