California legal folding sword!

B

Beelzebubba

Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Messages
83
Hello all, long time.
I just had a thought today for a new, never before done, California legal folding sword cane.
If anyone would like to make one for me, you can have all rights!
It goes like this;
1) Start with some PVC cane, such as the Cold Steel variety. Inexpensive.
2) Find a katana blade from one of a plethora of sources, mid range in quality.
3) Ala navaja, assemble with an extended hardened tang on the locking mechanism for ground contact.
4) That's about it, other than a bit of tweaking and whatever, we now have a California legal, folding, locking, self defense knife/walking cane!
And it need not be difficult to make, nor expensive!

I mentioned it to Cold Steel (or whoever bought the company) this morning, and he said that he'd mention it to his marketing team, so... first come gets the credit for a historical first!
And I get a free prototype!
Whaddaya think?
Thanks for your time.
 
Thank you for your expected contribution, but what I suggested is not a cane sword as described by the penal code. It is not disguised as a cane with a hidden sword concealed within.
Perhaps if you read what I wrote, you would have seen that the product thereof is not mentioned in the statute whatsoever.
It is an obvious "folding knife", even concealable if desired/possible! Nothing 'hidden' about it.
The "folding knife" can be used as a cane, yet is still easily identified as a folding knife upon inspection by anyone!
Any object not specifically described in the penal code, such as my large folding knife, remains legal until the law is changed!
For instance, a throwing star that is not 'geometrical' is legal.
Thank you for your input.
 
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Beelzebubba said:
Thank you for your expected contribution, but what I suggested is not a cane sword as described by the penal code. It is not disguised as a cane with a hidden sword concealed within.
Perhaps if you read what I wrote, you would have seen that the product thereof is not mentioned in the statute whatsoever.
It is an obvious "folding knife", even concealable if desired/possible! Nothing 'hidden' about it.
The "folding knife" can be used as a cane, yet is still easily identified as a folding knife upon inspection by anyone!
Any object not specifically described in the penal code, such as my large folding knife, remains legal until the law is changed!
For instance, a throwing star that is not 'geometrical' is legal.
Thank you for your input.
Click to expand...

I read what you wrote. You want to make a cane that has a sword that folds out of it. Like I said, I’m not sure a police officer or judge would agree with your interpretation of the law.

Legal technicalities only work for the people with the means to fight it out in court.
 
Who knows? But I’d be prepared to do some splainin’.
Depending on where, when and to whom the splainin’ was done, may very well determine whether you were free to go or not.
 
Well, I certainly agree with you that being lawful is only truly accomplished if one is wealthy enough to afford a good lawyer!
Nevertheless, if the item is not defined in the statutes, especially if you can reference the statute to the cop before you, and you were doing nothing else illegal, it seems that he'd have no choice but to let you go.
If you were 'brandishing it' (waving it around) like an idiot, that, in itself, would be an illegal act. But just walking with it would keep it below the 'radar' of the average person. And if it showed on their radar, it would be proved to not be concealed.
I am not a lawyer, thank Dog, but I do know enough of the law to get past an non-applicable statute. The folding knife is NOT described in the statute!
Making it, in itself, legal.
A cop with a personal problem can certainly make one's life difficult, (but... at least I'm white), but I'd give him no due cause for grief (we're on the same side, brother) beyond pointing out the relevant statute.
All else being equal, any halfassed lawyer would be able to get it thrown out of court! Even before the trial.
 
HopalongCassidy said:
Who knows? But I’d be prepared to do some splainin’.
Depending on where, when and to whom the splainin’ was done, may very well determine whether you were free to go or not.
Click to expand...
Absolutely agree.
If not doing anything stupid it will remain below ordinary 'radar'.
And if there is 'splaining to be done, being loving and civil and compassionate goes a very long way in tumultuous times such as these!
Besides, no one really sees a 70 year old man (unless you are a predator), anyway. Younger is more on the radar...
 
Perhaps a picture of the final product would help rather than imagining from your description.
But my initial feeling is that although you have explained how it is not a cane sword, the fact that
it can be used as a cane will be sufficient to bring charges for possession. Whether it is not a cane sword or not
would then have to be argued by your defense attorney.
But as I said, perhaps an image of your concept would help.
 
I've been through the California criminal justice system. I've witnessed, up close and personal, from the inside, how the system works. I've had several criminal defense attorneys in my employment. And I've read more penal code statutes, and case law than I could ever remember (case law being a more detailed definition of the penal statutes as determined by a superior court after someone was convicted and appealed their conviction). And here's some of what I've learned from it all-

There's YOUR interpretation of the law, and then there's THE SYSTEMS interpretation of the law. If YOUR interpretation is wrong, you go to jail, you pay thousands of dollars in fines and court costs, not to mention lawyer fees, and you get a criminal record, with all the unpleasantness that goes with it.

Lots of people have done time, and lost a lot of money, believing that their interpretation of the law, and their legal definitions, would be accepted by the courts. That's a hell of a gamble to take. And for what? What practical purpose would such an item serve.

California case law is filled with instances of prosecutors trying to expand weapons laws, they do it all the time, and sometimes they win. Several people have gone to jail for carrying/possessing ordinary items that the SYSTEM decided were illegal weapons, and some of their convictions were upheld on appeal. A cane with a blade folded into it? Yeah, I can easily imagine some District Attorney deciding to prosecute.

And are you familiar with the prohibition of a "shobi-zue" in the California penal code? They are also illegal to possess- http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...onNum=17160.&highlight=true&keyword=shobi-zue

I could easily imagine a cop, or prosecutor, deciding that your "cane knife" meets that description. And then you get to go through the SYSTEM.

From time to time I would ask my last lawyer for legal advice about knives and weapons, as he was very knowledgeable on the subject. And when the law was unclear, or left room for interpretation I would ask if there was case law on the matter. And when there wasn't his answer to me was- "No. Do YOU want to be the case law?". Meaning, do I want to take the gamble, push the legal envelope, maybe get arrested, maybe get convicted, and then try my luck at an appeal.

My answer was always "No". And that was the answer he was looking for.

You do what you want, but my advice is- don't wager your freedom on the belief that how you interpret the law, and your "cane knife", is the same as how the SYSTEM will. If you lose that bet, you lose BIG.
 
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KenHash said:
Perhaps a picture of the final product would help rather than imagining from your description.
But my initial feeling is that although you have explained how it is not a cane sword, the fact that
it can be used as a cane will be sufficient to bring charges for possession. Whether it is not a cane sword or not
would then have to be argued by your defense attorney.
But as I said, perhaps an image of your concept would help.
Click to expand...
I would love to send a picture, but as this product is unique in the world, no one has made one. If I was tooled up, I would, but I'm too old and f***ed to start again.
All I can say is that since there is no other, it cannot fall into some code unless there is a blade length restriction in your area, in which it would obviously be illegal on that count!
In CA. there is no blade length restrictions on a folder (excepting a few local jurisdictions).
That's the point. It is a folder and the code specifically defines a cane sword, which it is not.
 
The Aflac Duck said:
You must be filled with all sorts of deep insight and life lessons.
Click to expand...
Perhaps this is sarcasm, but as I am being honest and straight I might reply that spending most of my life as a knifemaker/smith in various parts of the USA, I have followed and learned a bit of the relevant laws, and human nature.
Yeah, I've learned a few 'life lessons'.
Relevancy?
 
Wouldn't it be better to just make an actual folding sword that's not in a cane/tube. I mean if it's sword length then you could just use it as a cane still, it would also be faster to deploy, well I doubt you could thumb flick it. There are historical folding swords from the 1700's in Italy I believe.
This way you aren't pushing legal troubles, and more people will be comfortable buying it because it's not dancing on legal lines.
Cold Steel / GSM would 100% make a folding sword, I'm actually surprized Lynn Thompson hasn't already made a folding Katana, or folding Great Sword.
 
killgar said:
I've been through the California criminal justice system. I've witnessed, up close and personal, from the inside, how the system works. I've had several criminal defense attorneys in my employment. And I've read more penal code statutes, and case law than I could ever remember (case law being a more detailed definition of the penal statutes as determined by a superior court after someone was convicted and appealed their conviction). And here's some of what I've learned from it all-

There's YOUR interpretation of the law, and then there's THE SYSTEMS interpretation of the law. If YOUR interpretation is wrong, you go to jail, you pay thousands of dollars in fines and court costs, not to mention lawyer fees, and you get a criminal record, with all the unpleasantness that goes with it.

Lots of people have done time, and lost a lot of money, believing that their interpretation of the law, and their legal definitions, would be accepted by the courts. That's a hell of a gamble to take. And for what? What practical purpose would such an item serve.
Click to expand...


Yes, I realize that it can be a hassle defending one's rights, but daddy didn't raise someone to just shed those rights for 'comfort'.
If we all did that, no one would have any rights!

killgar said:
California case law is filled with instances of prosecutors trying to expand weapons laws, they do it all the time, and sometimes they win. Several people have gone to jail for carrying/possessing ordinary items that the SYSTEM decided were illegal weapons, and their convictions were upheld on appeal. A cane with a blade folded into it? Yeah, I can easily imagine some District Attorney deciding to prosecute.

And are you familiar with the prohibition of a "shobi-zue" in the California penal code? They are also illegal to possess- http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...onNum=17160.&highlight=true&keyword=shobi-zue
Click to expand...

A 'shobi-zue' is specifically defined in the penal code. Point is?
If the definition doesn't define the item in question, all things being equal, there is no case.

http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...onNum=17160.&highlight=true&keyword=shobi-zue
killgar said:
I could easily imagine a cop, or prosecutor, deciding that your "cane knife" meets that description. And then you get to go through the SYSTEM.
Click to expand...


My lawyer would talk to the DA and it would be dropped before any trial.
Judges don't like to have their time wasted!

killgar said:
From time to time I would ask my last lawyer for legal advice about knives and weapons, as he was very knowledgeable on the subject. And when the law was unclear, or left room for interpretation I would ask if there was case law on the matter. And when there wasn't his answer to me was- "No. Do YOU want to be the case law?". Meaning, do I want to take the gamble, push the legal envelope, maybe get arrested, maybe get convicted, and then try my luck at an appeal.

My answer was always "No". And that was the answer he was looking for.

You do what you want, but my advice is- don't wager your freedom on the belief that how you interpret the law, and your "cane knife", is the same as how the SYSTEM will. If you lose that bet, you lose BIG.
Click to expand...

I can't help but to agree with you, and I would run it by my lawyer friend and take his wise advice.
But I am old enough not to fear possible results of my being legal, as defined by law!
They wouldn't throw me in jail anyway. Not these days. No record worth mentioning, etc...
All (?) case law seems to be decided by someone with the cojones to do what they think is right and legal and standing up for their (all of our) rights!
Without being too humble, isn't that what made America, America?
 
Beelzebubba said:
Perhaps this is sarcasm, but as I am being honest and straight I might reply that spending most of my life as a knifemaker/smith in various parts of the USA, I have followed and learned a bit of the relevant laws, and human nature.
Yeah, I've learned a few 'life lessons'.
Relevancy?
Click to expand...

Laws change, so does human nature... But one thing that never changes is stupidity.
 
Beelzebubba said:
I would love to send a picture, but as this product is unique in the world, no one has made one. If I was tooled up, I would, but I'm too old and f***ed to start again.
All I can say is that since there is no other, it cannot fall into some code unless there is a blade length restriction in your area, in which it would obviously be illegal on that count!
In CA. there is no blade length restrictions on a folder (excepting a few local jurisdictions).
That's the point. It is a folder and the code specifically defines a cane sword, which it is not.
Click to expand...

Sorry, when I said "picture" I didn't mean a photograph. I meant a drawing, a diagram.
 
Londinium Armoury said:
Wouldn't it be better to just make an actual folding sword that's not in a cane/tube.
Click to expand...

Therein lies the crux!
If in a 'tube', as defined by law, it's a cane sword and illegal. (Concealed)


Londinium Armoury said:
I mean if it's sword length then you could just use it as a cane still, it would also be faster to deploy, well I doubt you could thumb flick it. There are historical folding swords from the 1700's in Italy I believe.
Click to expand...

Yes, navajas. Made just for the same purpose, the wealthy government, in attempting to disarm the peasantry, made it illegal to carry swords (non-folding).
So, some smart alec upstart thought, "wait a minute, if it folded it won't be illegal!"
And it wasn't!

Londinium Armoury said:
This way you aren't pushing legal troubles, and more people will be comfortable buying it because it's not dancing on legal lines.
Cold Steel / GSM would 100% make a folding sword, I'm actually surprized Lynn Thompson hasn't already made a folding Katana, or folding Great Sword.
Click to expand...

That is why I suggested it to them this am!
It seems right up their alley!
A bit larger than their Espada xl! heh
The fellow on the phone was quite interested.
It is so up their alley, that I suspect that they will consult their legal team and go from there.
I've done that before, successfully.

We'll see...
 
Beelzebubba said:
Therein lies the crux!
If in a 'tube', as defined by law, it's a cane sword and illegal. (Concealed)




Yes, navajas. Made just for the same purpose, the wealthy government, in attempting to disarm the peasantry, made it illegal to carry swords (non-folding).
So, some smart alec upstart thought, "wait a minute, if it folded it won't be illegal!"
And it wasn't!



That is why I suggested it to them this am!
It seems right up their alley!
A bit larger than their Espada xl! heh
The fellow on the phone was quite interested.
It is so up their alley, that I suspect that they will consult their legal team and go from there.
I've done that before, successfully.

We'll see...
Click to expand...

I was thinking something about 4 times bigger than the espada XL, like something about 40 inches total opened length, it would be ridiculous, but that's why it would be cool.
 
KenHash said:
Sorry, when I said "picture" I didn't mean a photograph. I meant a drawing, a diagram.
Click to expand...
I haven't learned to do that yet.
Picture a large "straight" navaja, pivot down with a short extension on the 'picklock' for ground contact, and a handle on the other end, a ball or some sort of pistol grip like a shillelagh.
 
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