Canadian Laws Regarding Spring-Assisted OTF

D

Datawraith

Joined
Apr 8, 2013
Messages
31
Hi there.
I'm new here, and I was wondering if this knife I wanted to get was legal in Ontario, Canada.
http://www.pvk.com/webcat/SchradeViperAssistedOTFSBT.shtml#6801
It's a Schrade 3rd Generation Viper OTF and is spring assisted, but I researched a lot, and still don't know if I can get it.
The problem is that the laws are very ambiguous; in my interpretation of the law, the lever has to be attached to the handle in order for it to be illegal; the viper's is attached to the blade, and must be moved before the spring takes over and therefore legal. However, it's an OTF, and although there is nothing in the laws that specifically states this is illegal (it states autos, switchblades, balisongs are illegal), many of the other question/answer forums that I came across say that it is illegal. I want to keep it as a tool, because it has a nice blade, serration, glass breaker, and manual safety.
Please help.
Thanks much.
 
Now, I'm from the US and only a little knowledge of Canadian knife laws. But let me pose a question that you can probably answer for yourself that might help you reach the most practical conclusion: Are you interested in what a judge will rule on the knife if you were brought before them on charges, or are you interested in how the local police will react if they see your knife or remove it from your pocket during a stop? In nearly any part of the world, these are two totally separate matters. You're in a better position to know how your local cops feel, and my gut tells me that a Canadian officer seeing an blade fly open under spring tension is just going to go "switchblade!"
 
Probably illegal. The Criminal Code actually says:
“prohibited weapon” means

(a) a knife that has a blade that opens automatically by gravity or centrifugal force or by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in or attached to the handle of the knife

Notice that it is a button, spring or other device in or attached to the handle. In this case, the tab that you push may be attached to the blade, but it protrudes from the handle and so is arguably "in" the handle.

When you consider the legality of any spring-assisted knife in Canada, you need to bear in mind that the only authority that has final say on what is legal is a court. You can make your argument that the button is attached to the blade, but that is only your argument. Only the court gets to say what the law is.
 
Thanks for your replies, but regarding glistam, I could drop it and put my hands up and show the cop it's a manual, spring-assisted blade, which is legal (in my interpretation, but leads to welsh's argument). Regarding welsh, there are 2 interpretations;
a) the lever, device, whatever is attached to or "in" the handle (your interpretation) (and therefore rendering a wanted/needed knife illegal) or
b) it is literally "attached" to the "handle", and not the blade itself
Could somebody please help clarify the interpretations (hopefully somebody knowledgeable like a cop or judge)?
Thanks much.
 
There a are no judges on this forum and if I'm not mistaken they would not be allowed to render an valid, binding opinion on the internet anyway. In 9 years in this sub-forum I've never seen a Canadian officer either.

However, I did some digging into Canadian law and found this: http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/publications/dm-md/d19/d19-13-2-eng.html

Exception: The following type of knife does not generally meet the definition of prohibited weapon, and therefore it is not within the purview of TI 9898.00.00. The misuse of this knife may nonetheless be punishable under other laws.
22. Torsion bar assisted-opening knives (folding knife, speed-safe knife, spring-assisted knife) – Folding knives that use an internal "torsion bar" to assist in opening them with one hand. The heart of this opening system is the torsion bar in the handle of the knife. In order to open the knife, the user must apply manual pressure to a thumb stud or other protrusion on the blade, thereby overcoming the resistance of the torsion bar. After the blade is moved partially out of the handle by this manual pressure, the torsion bar takes over.
Click to expand...

This is an Import-Export law, not a carry law, but the mere fact that the CBSA takes the time to point out the difference, and label them as an exception, does provide strong grounds that they are not interpreted as illegal weapons under the carry laws.
 
You are missing the point: Only a court can decide on the law.

A cop can't tell you this knife is legal -- he is not qualified to say, and can only tell you whether he would lay a charge. A judge won't comment outside the court. And a lawyer will only give you an opinion for money. You can look for case law on this if you like, but I'd be amazed if you found any. The design seems unique enough that I doubt it has been tested.

There are indeed two interpretations. The knife meets the criteria to be prohibited under one of those interpretations. For that reason, a court could easily rule that it is a prohibited weapon. Carrying that knife would be a roll of the dice, where the bet is up to five years in jail and a criminal record.

I would not take that bet, because I am fairly confident of how the dice would fall. When it comes to interpreting the law, the courts tend to be swayed by a feeling of where the public interest lies. They may stretch definitions to satisfy their interpretation of the public interest. You need to consider that if you come before a judge, there will likely be other circumstances that led to the police finding the arguably prohibited knife. Those other circumstances will inform the court's idea of the public interest.

I realize that you are looking for a definitive answer here. I realize also that you really want this knife. But the fact is there is no definitive answer on something like this. You need to think seriously about whether rolling the dice on something like this is a good idea. I'd encourage erring on the side of caution.
 
welsh said:
Probably illegal. The Criminal Code actually says:
“prohibited weapon” means

(a) a knife that has a blade that opens automatically by gravity or centrifugal force or by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in or attached to the handle of the knife

Notice that it is a button, spring or other device in or attached to the handle. In this case, the tab that you push may be attached to the blade, but it protrudes from the handle and so is arguably "in" the handle.
Click to expand...

glistam said:
There a are no judges on this forum and if I'm not mistaken they would not be allowed to render an valid, binding opinion on the internet anyway. In 9 years in this sub-forum I've never seen a Canadian officer either.

However, I did some digging into Canadian law and found this: http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/publications/dm-md/d19/d19-13-2-eng.html



This is an Import-Export law, not a carry law, but the mere fact that the CBSA takes the time to point out the difference, and label them as an exception, does provide strong grounds that they are not interpreted as illegal weapons under the carry laws.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, the import-export law refers only to knives with torsion bars. The Viper uses a coiled spring, if I'm not mistaken.

However, the Viper should still be legal in Canada, due to the fact that assisted knives are not illegal. Assisted knives require the use of force directly on the blade to activate spring pressure; that's what keeps them legal. However, if we read strictly from the portion of the Criminal Code as sectioned above, we could consider all 'assisted knives', even ones with torsion bars, illegal, due to the fact that we still need to move the blade from the handle before spring tension takes over. Because there is a mechanism attached, we could consider it a 'device inside or attached to the handle'.

But, because knives like the Kershaw Blur and Leek are perfectly legal to own and carry, I wouldn't think twice about owning a Viper, which has a tab attached to the blade directly. I would still caution you to use it sparingly in public, in order to avoid being hassled by LE, though.

EDIT: One minor note, I've owned and used an earlier version of the Schrade OTF for a few years now, never been an issue.
 
Thanks for your replies, especially welsh for trying to keep me out of trouble. But I think I'll take WillardCorspe's opinion, and my own judgement and get it. Yes, I would probably carry it around, but I won't use it in public that much. My interpretation of the law agrees with WillardCorspe's; because then any spring-assisted knife would be illegal by welsh's interpretation, making a lot of blades here in Canada illegal. And thanks to glistam for some clarification; I saw that link before, but always thought it was carry laws, not specifically import-export.
Also welsh, the only way I would get into court over this is if the officer decides to charge me. Considering I really don't think I'm stupid enough to attack somebody with a knife and really hope not to get into a situation where a tool becomes a weapon, the only way I might possibly get hauled into court is if an officer specifically sees me OPENING my knife and decides to charge me. However, I could show him/her it's a manual retraction, and prove that's it not a switchblade and is spring-assisted. I think if I prove I know the laws and restrictions surrounding my blade, and I know that I'm "not really" violating them, then I think that he/she will just let me go, as it's not worth the hassle (Canadian cops are usually pretty reasonable when I talk to them). But thanks a lot for your concern welsh.
Thanks again to everyone. (This is a good forum. Everyone is so helpful and nice. :D)
I'll post again when I get my Schrade Viper (unless of course somebody suddenly pops up before I get it and says, with evidence, that it is illegal).
 
WillardCorspe said:
Assisted knives require the use of force directly on the blade to activate spring pressure; that's what keeps them legal. However, if we read strictly from the portion of the Criminal Code as sectioned above, we could consider all 'assisted knives', even ones with torsion bars, illegal, due to the fact that we still need to move the blade from the handle before spring tension takes over. Because there is a mechanism attached, we could consider it a 'device inside or attached to the handle'.
Click to expand...

This is true. What is different in this case is that the device attached to the blade is captive in the handle. That's the kind of distinction that could matter. Can you find that knife for sale in Canada? That would suggest how the CBSA views it.

Just consider that the ammunition storage laws, and information published by the RCMP, imply that there is no need to lock up ammo, yet Ian Thompson recently had to fight that one in court when the Crown argued that ammo does indeed need to be locked up.

It's a rather goofy area of the law, because AOs and autos are functionally the same thing, and one is legal, but the other is banned.

Edited to add, since the OP has decided: if you don't ever have reason to come before a judge, it won't matter.
 
welsh said:
This is true. What is different in this case is that the device attached to the blade is captive in the handle. That's the kind of distinction that could matter. Can you find that knife for sale in Canada? That would suggest how the CBSA views it.

Just consider that the ammunition storage laws, and information published by the RCMP, imply that there is no need to lock up ammo, yet Ian Thompson recently had to fight that one in court when the Crown argued that ammo does indeed need to be locked up.

It's a rather goofy area of the law, because AOs and autos are functionally the same thing, and one is legal, but the other is banned.

Edited to add, since the OP has decided: if you don't ever have reason to come before a judge, it won't matter.
Click to expand...

Actually, I bought mine on Amazon.ca from a Canadian retailer, oddly enough. I get what you mean though, it's basically the same thing in operation, but instead of rotating, the blade just goes forward... Not to mention OTF's aren't exactly 'public friendly' in the first place. And about the autos... I wish we'd get those stupid laws dropped so I could carry some of them! Once a knife is open, it's just a knife... the way it opens doesn't make it any more or less dangerous, lol. Not that I'm advocating that anyone break the law, of course.
 
Unfortunately, I think if we opened the auto can of worms in Parliament, we'd end up with a ban on all locking folders or something equally stupid. ;)
 
Hi again everyone!
I got my Schrade Viper today without any problems. I don't know if CBSA approved it, as PVK.com (Pine Valley Knives) supposedly uses a "special courier" that gets past the border without complications. I will however, be asking a law enforcement officer I know personally (we're friends, I didn't commit a crime) about the implications of carrying and using it. I asked him before I got my blade, but he said it sounds legal to carry, but he'll have to see it personally. So I'll let you guys know!
 
Ok. It's been awhile since I've been here, and I don't know if anybody's still reading this thread but I'll post anyways. I've talked to the cops, and they said it was legal to carry, provided it's not for self-defense purposes. If I get stopped and/or a LEO tries to arrest me for possession of an "illegal" knife, just tell him/her the law, and show him/her that it's not an auto and that the trigger is attached to the blade, not the handle.
Now, the knife doesn't actually hold an edge all that well, but I've used it as an EDC knife for the past few months and it works great as that. I've actually started a new thread, looking for an OTF karambit, and the reasons are on that thread, so I guess I'll close this one.
Cheers.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1109229-OTF-Karambit?p=12652783#post12652783
 
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