Can't get anything razor sharp... at my wits end

[jimcon11]

I imagine this is going to be an annoying post to a lot of you so apologies in advance.

I've been collecting knives for years but the fact that I can't sharpen worth a damn is seriously killing my enthusiasm. I know there's tons of tutorials and guides here, so many that it's overwhelming and impossible to know what really to try next. I've spent probably 100+ hours working on technique with no luck whatsoever.

I started with a new Kabar that came dull and picked up a King waterstone 1000/6000 grit. Not the best scenario for beginners I suppose, and indeed all I managed to do after thousands of strokes was grind off tons of blade and round the edge. I had a bit more success with thinner kitchen knives on the King stone but still nothing that would shave hair.

I figured I'm just not good at holding a consistent angle so after a lot of research I got some auto sandpaper, a mousepad, Bark River green/black and built a strop and tried following this guy's tutorial on convex sharpening exactly. The angle isn't supposed to matter as much since there is a cushion effect going on. Well, it didnt get my Kabar any sharper, nor the Case Trapper I tried next. I went all the way down to 400 grit to try to reprofile in case the bevels were just bad.

I've tried all the usual tricks. I look down the edge in light and all the reflections that would indicate a bluntness are gone. I color the bevel with a sharpie with every step, and I'm definitely removing down to the edge before I move on. Fearing that I was angling too high and rounding the edge, I started holding the knife almost parallel to the sharpening surface and applying zero pressure. Still nothing. I can develop an edge with bite that will catch on my finger nail or kinda start cutting paper, but it just slides over arm hair doing nothing. The strop and compound stage is actually making the knife duller every time.

Long story short, I'm baffled. Any questions, ideas, or tips I've overlooked would be hugely appreciated. I want to learn to sharpen like a man without using some 'system', expensive product, or machine, but it's turning out to be so damn difficult for me.

 

[AntDog]

Bottom line is you aren’t making an apex. If you have one angle that meets the other at the edge it’ll be sharp.

I think maybe in your frustration you’ve tried so many different approaches that things got muddied.

Start all over with the cheapest knife you have. Put a stone in front of you and swipe on one side AT THE SAME ANGLE until you get a burr. Flip it over and repeat. Do the same on a lower grit. Repeat until sharp.

 

[Craig James]

I second ants post above, keep it simple and start over again, ditch any ideas about convexing your edge. Use your coarsest stone and don’t change from it until your knife is sharp.

My guess is you are not removing the burr on the blade when you’ve apexed the edge. Easiest way to do this for a beginner is once apexed try and reduce it on the stone with a couple of edge leading strokes alternating sides (start on the side where you can feel the burr) before moving onto a strop loaded with some compound. Ditch the mouse mat, get some leather on plywood or use and old belt. Hanging strops could work well for you here as the leather will follow the edge angle and ensure you hit the burr.

take a look at the video in post 30 regarding how to use a hanging strop. Just note that doing this on bare leather won’t work if you have a big burr hence the compound.
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/recognizing-and-removing-wire-edge.1575232/page-2

if you are worried about the angle you are holding then try using a wedge as a reference, you can make them or buy them off Amazon

 

[jimcon11]

Bottom line is you aren’t making an apex. If you have one angle that meets the other at the edge it’ll be sharp.

If I'm removing the sharpie mark from the edge on both sides then I don't understand how I'm not making an apex....

I dont think my angle holding was precise enough to even get an apex or a burr on the waterstone, which is why I went to the mousepad, edge trailing, alternate stroke method. But I'll try it again with a cheap knife I'm not scared to mess up, maybe that'll make the difference. thanks.

. Use your coarsest stone and don’t change from it until your knife is sharp.

My guess is you are not removing the burr on the blade when you’ve apexed the edge.

So how sharp should I expect my edge to be from something really coarse like 400 grit sandpaper?

Since I was trying the convex method I wasnt even trying for a burr let alone removing it. I don't understand what's wrong with that method but I'll revisit what you guys are suggesting and try to raise a burr on each side.

.

 

[Craig James]

Since I was trying the convex method I wasnt even trying for a burr let alone removing it. I don't understand what's wrong with that method

The key here (until you start getting knives sharp) is to keep things as simple as possible and then build from there. By raising a burr on both sides across the whole length of the blade (I.e one side then the other) you have a 100% certainty that you have apexed the edge fully. Then you need to remove it. Fully removing the burr is certainly the hardest part. This is the difference between shaving your arm hair and the thing barely cutting paper.

If you can’t hold angles accurately all that is going to happen is that you won’t get a nice looking edge and your apex will indeed be convexed. If you’ve raised a burr as per the above you will still get it sharp. Aim for around 15 degrees per side.

Done properly your 400 stone will give you an edge that will easily shave your arm hair.

If you’ve not already done so, take a look at this thread

 

[RustyIron]

Hey, Jim. Time to clear your mind of everything you tried before. It doesn't work and your edge surely needs to have a proper shape restored. Your 1000/6000 stone is too fine for this work. You're going to have to remove a lot of material. I wouldn't even want to start with your 400. Start coarser, and make the edge as perfect as you can get it before even thinking of moving to finer stones. You can't fix a bad edge by going finer. Get rid of that mousepad. Throw it in the trash. Your goal is to make the bevels perfectly flat--no curvature whatsoever. Imagine a triangle, a triangle with a point that is perfect. Thats what you want. To achieve the perfect point, every stroke you take must be exactly like the previous one, like the hundreds of others. That's what you're looking for.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

With convexing methods like sandpaper-on-mousepad, angle IS important, but in a different way.

The key to that is making sure the angle doesn't vary too high when the abrasive is in contact at the 'cheeks' of the apex itself. If you go too high there, the paper on the compressible surface will roll around the apex itself, which rounds it off and prevents it from getting sharp. So, in one sense, you are 'apexing' the edge. But in doing so, you're also rounding it off, which is why it never really gets sharp.

Where the variation in angle doesn't matter as much is BEHIND the apex. You can get away with rounding/convexing the grind behind the edge. But, the edge itself, when finished and 'sharp', should still be essentially a crisp 'V' in profile. If it isn't, it'll never be sharp.

Use the same technique as before, but instead do away with the soft backing (mouse pad). Put the sandpaper over a firm or hard backing, like wood, glass, smooth stone, etc., and see how that reduces the tendency for the sandpaper to 'roll' around the apex. You can also practice your technique on the firm backing alone, watching as you pivot the spine up until the 'cheeks' of the apex just begin to make contact. When that happens, DON'T lift the spine any higher as you finish the stroke. When you get a feel for that, then lay the sandpaper over the hard backing and try again. It'll work even better if you attach the sandpaper to the firm backing, with glue, double-stick tape or whatever. That'll keep the paper from lifting or moving, which again will minimize the opportunities for it to roll or form itself around and over the apex.

 

[G11354]

Buy a cheap combo stone and a set of cheap knives from the dollar store to practice on.

When I first started free hand sharpening I was extremely frustrated as I could not produce a decent edge and on top of that I somewhat butchered my knife. Practice and patience, dont get to discouraged as free hand sharpening is somewhat difficult at first. Im still learning and have just got my knives to hair shaving sharp, still learning recurve blades at the moment.

 

[Alberta Ed]

Get an angle guide, the kind that clamps onto the spine of the knife and a set of diamond hones, coarse and fine. Maintaining a consistent angle is critical to achieving a razor edge. My DMT hones have lasted for more than two decades and still work as well as when brand new.

 

[Barmaley]

When I was in this situation I got Norton Crystolon and after 5 minutes on a course side mi knives were cutting paper. My next step was to invest into Sharpal 162 N which is much better than Crystolon and my knives became really sharp for kitchen work. No I am thinking about what will happen if I go to 3000 grit?

 

[Blues]

Get an angle guide, the kind that clamps onto the spine of the knife and a set of diamond hones, coarse and fine. Maintaining a consistent angle is critical to achieving a razor edge. My DMT hones have lasted for more than two decades and still work as well as when brand new.

I think this is good advice, and you can find the Buck Honemaster online or the auction sites for not a lot of money. One of our members here, by the name Shinbone, started a thread a few years back and showed his hair whittling results using it to maintain consistent angle.

Once you get the movement down with the guide, you'll become more confident in taking steps to freehand sharpening without a guide down the road.

 

[jimcon11]

Thanks for all the kind replies, I was honestly expecting a lot more "read the stickies, use search you idiot" stuff . I was so frustrated when I started the thread.

I think I understand what was going wrong. I'm going to take a few days away from my knives to clear my head and come back to the advice here, specifically working up the burr on each side with <400 grit hard surface and probably creating some angle guides so I can eliminate that source of uncertainty. I'll look into some of the products mentioned as well.

 

[Ben Dover]

This thread reminds me of a story.

A young man approached a policeman in NYC and asked:"excuse me officer, can you tell me how to get to Carnegie Hall?"

The officer smiled, and said "practice, practice, practice."

I think there's a lesson here for sharpeners as well.

 

[Craig James]

I think that sounds like a plan. Giving advice remotely is always a difficult thing and the key for you will be identifying where the issue lies. Like any good science experiment you do this by eliminating variables in a methodical fashion. Please give that thread I linked a thorough read, it lays out the whole process in a very comprehensive way and includes some very good videos for more insight.

I’m a firm believer that we get overly hung up on angle control. Yes of course it’s important, especially when you are aiming for extreme level of sharpness, but the majority of free hand sharpeners lack angle control of some magnitude and still manage to get a very sharp edge. Yesterday I sharpened an 8inch chefs knife and was reflecting on this very point when looking at the wobble in my wrist at various parts of the stroke. That knife will still cleanly slice hanging kitchen roll against the paper grain... Getting an angle guide will give you a reference point and if nothing else will go some way to allaying that mental concern. Go slow at the start when setting the bevel using it as a reference regularly.

In time and with experience you will be able to feel the correct angle based on the existing bevel. When starting out this feels like an impossible goal but believe me, one day it will just happen. That’s not something that can be taught, it only comes from hours of rubbing metal on a stone.

Again, do not underestimate the difficulty and importance of fully removing that burr. It can be difficult to do it cleanly on a coarse stone, that is why I would recommend a strop loaded with compound (after minimising it as much as possible on the stone).

Some people quite rightly see this as a bit of a crutch, the optimum angle will always be gained off a stone, the softer substrate leads to some edge rounding that degrades ultimate sharpness, but not to anywhere near the degree that leaving a burr on the blade will. Ultimately this will be a short cut to giving you a positive (the strop will allow burr removal with less chance of developing a new one on the other side of the knife) result which I think is what you need right now.

 

[crowley213]

While still quite a rookie to free hand sharpening I already (think to have) learned a few things:

- It´s all about practice! Yes, I read about sharpening, I look videos, I ask questions here in the forum and try to use the hints and recommendations, but all this is just theory. All that really matters is to practice, means sharpening knives, trying to use the recommended techniques, develop muscle memory and so on. Most important for me: To accept failure, as it simply takes time to learn!

- Keep it simple! Yes, using a nice grit progression may be the final step, but in the beginning it is not really helpful. Getting a sharp edge with a coarse stone is something that can be mastered soon after you start sharpening, but not to destroy again that sharp edge with finer grits and / or stropping is something different. At this moment I restrict myself to just two grits (SG 500, then SG 2000) and final stropping (leather with 1 micron diamond spray) and it is already enough struggle for me.

- Use coarse stones! As already mentioned, I normally start with a SG 500. In case the knife is really dull and / or "screwed up" from whatever former sharpening trials I even use a 220 grit (DMT or SG) to do the base work. No way I could get the same results at this moment with a finer stone like a 2,000 grit or whatever.

- Check your results under real world conditions! Okay, maybe it´s just me, but testing a knife with cutting paper in the beginning is something that also can be misleading. How much pressure is still okay, what motion, what paper and so on. For me much more important: How does the knife behave in real world usage? My actually preferred test for kitchen knives: Can they cut a tomato without applying pressure, means just by their own weight? I found that some knives that worked on my paper test failed miserably on the tomatoes, so "back to start"!

- Slowness is key! Yes, it looks great when you see pros sharpening a knife with fluid and fast movements, but that is simply is not feasible in the beginning. The grinding effect of a stone does not depend on the speed of the movement, therefore you can use fast or slow movements and you will get the same results. Much more important: The necessary concentration on the movement, means keeping a consistent angle, to apply the correct pressure and so on.

- Finally, even I mentioned it already, practice, practice, practice! I even ordered myself now some cheap kitchen knives (the area where I want to learn) for practice purposes. No, I will not touch our "good", even just entry level, Japanese kitchen knives before have not mastered at least some basics. But you cannot learn if you don´t practice, so some "training knives" and / or cheap / old knives you really use make sense, at least for me.

Don´t loose patience, it´s neither rocket science nor a piece of cake. It just may take some time... and at least for me it is a real relaxing exercise. Moving the knife over the stone, some good music on the headphones, thoughts can wander... there are worse things to spend your time with!

Herbert

 

[c7m2p3]

As everyone here has already said, ultimately practice makes perfect. However. If you are looking for more immediate results and don't want to ruin a few knives in the process of learning, it may be worth looking at getting a quality fixed angle sharpening system such as the KME. Clamp the blade, set the angle, and grind away. You know exactly the angle that you are working with throughout your progression and for a few bucks more you can get diamond hones which are going to work faster on every steel.

I know you already have some stones and freehanding can be rewarding in its own right. But if you are actually stuck and your love of your knives is starting to suffer because of this, getting something that is impossible to screw up is going to do wonders for you in achieving an apex.

 

[MtnHawk1]

jimcon11, I'd suggest first determining whether you want a coarse, toothy edge or a smooth, polished edge. It's a matter of personal preference depending on your usage, but most people seem to prefer a coarse edge. Knowing this will possibly save you from buying high grit abrasives you may not need. There are many threads and posts about the pros and cons of each type of edge. For now I'd suggest finishing sharpening on the low grit side (400 or lower) then going higher if you need to.

For a long time I was getting good sharpening info, but it was in bits and pieces. I couldn't tie the whole thing together and get the big picture until I read The Razor Edge Book of Sharpening, by John Juranitch. I was surprised how simple freehand sharpening really is when I finally understood the basic principles and could get sharp edges. The book has many photos and drawings, making it much easier to understand the concepts and instructions. I highly recommend it.

Most people concentrate only on sharpness but if the area behind the apex (extreme edge) is thicker than it needs to be then a knife will not cut as well as it can, no matter how sharp it is. Thinning this area can scratch the blade but I buy knives to use them, not admire how pretty they are. Juranitch explains relief grinding in detail, as well as other key sharpening concepts such as creating and removing burrs.

I used to worry about not holding the exact same sharpening angle repeatedly, but that's impossible for anyone to do freehand. I certainly do not advocate sloppy freehand sharpening, but being a few degrees off here and there creates a slight convex edge, which isn't a bad thing. However, I am happy with good, working, utility edges and have no need for knives that can whittle hair. If ultimate, razor sharp edges are important to you then you might consider a guided system.

I like to sharpen, but not to the point where I want to spend anymore time at it than I have to. After failing to remove metal as quickly as I wanted using abrasives around 120 grit, I fortunately finally found out about the 60 grit Baryonyx Manticore, which I now use for the majority of my sharpening, lightly finishing with a few strokes at 120 grit, then 325-400 grit. By lightly touching up my edges when they need it with the grit I finished with I keep my knives sharp and save time and metal by not aggressively sharpening any more than I need to.

I'm not at all saying this is the best or only way to sharpen, just what works best for me after much trial and error. There is a lot of great info on this forum and I am very grateful for what I've learned here. Once you understand the basic principles you can experiment around and see what works best for you.

 

[eveled]

Forget about convexing. You want perfect bevels on each side meeting like a triangle R RustyIron mentioned. Use a coarse stone until it’s sharp then move on to finer stones. Forget about shaving sharp. Sharp enough to cut a tomato is what you want.

Start with blades with straight edges Wharncliff, coping, rope knife type knives. So you can focus on your angle without transitioning to the curve to the tip. Think about shaving ribbons of wood off a green stick. That’s the angle you want.

When I sharpen curved knives I generally sharpen the flat part , then sharpen the curve separately.

When you take full strokes you have to lift your elbow when you get to the curve to maintain the angle as you approach the tip.

 

[jimcon11]

Update:

Based on all the great advice here I ordered a DMT coarse "stone" (the one with the blue holes) and a Buck Honemaster. The Honemaster hasn't come yet so I used binder clips on the back of the blade for now to create a ~20° angle.

I'm definitely impressed at what the DMT stone can do, I had a nice rebevel of this old Buck 110 knockoff going. I worked each side until I felt a burr along the entire cutting edge. I realized it was quite easy to raise a burr in some spots but others took a lot of passes on the stone. I kind of left the tip alone because it has some huge gouges and the angle guide didnt seem to work with it.

To remove the burr I thought to just try stropping with the Bark River black and green compound stuff that i bought. I guess it started polishing the edge but I'm not sure it really did much. I think you can see in the pic part of the burr along the middle of the edge that just wouldn't come off no matter how many edge trail strokes I did.

End result: it's easily the sharpest I've gotten a blade and it will roughly shave hair, but it's still not close to the factory edge on my real 110, which shaves as cleanly as a razor. I'd like to be able to get that result.

Questions:
- next time I suppose I should try to remove the burr on the DMT stone?

- Is going from the ~320 grit DMT to the ~3000 grit Bark River black compound just way too big of a jump? If so, what would be best to bridge the gap?

-is there a way to sharpen the belly and tip with angle guides or do you always end up having to freehand those parts?

-I paid like 35 bucks for these Bark River compound sticks.. surely they can help me somehow right? The manual they came with makes it sound like they're all you need for razor edges... When and how should I be using them?

Thanks again for the wealth of info here, I've definitely made progress in my sharpening

 

[AntDog]

Once you get a burr on both sides on a coarse stone, repeat the process on a finer stone. Then a finer one, then a finer one, and so on, until the burr is gone. The finer you go, the smaller the burr will get. A strop should finalize it.

By the time I go from a coarse DMT to an extra fine there’s no more burr and it’s sharp as sh!t.