Can't get anything razor sharp... at my wits end

Your strops will work but not if the burr is too large. You don’t need more stones to remove the burr, you can do it on your coarse DMT. Few bits of advice:

It’s perfectly alright to work on discrete areas of the blade without doing full passes. As your new at this you are probably varying pressure as you progress along the blade and /or skipping over areas too quickly.

Try to remove the burr on the stone before progressing to the strops, it really should be minimal at this point. The strops will just tidy up any remnants. You can do this by doing sweeping edge leading passes of the entire blade on the side where you can feel the burr

For the tip you will need to free hand it, guides are only guides. Get your wrist set at the correct angle and then begin to lift you hand up perpendicular to the face of the stone whilst maintaining the correct angle - this will allow you to sharpen the curve to the tip.

That tip damage is pretty severe. You will be at it forever trying to fix that with the coarse DMT
 
reduce/remove burr on your coarse stone, go to an extra fine (1200 grit dmt if you want) and refine the edge. strop if you want, but if you get the burr removed/reduced on the first coarse stone, you will make your job on subsequent stones and strops easier. It also depends on how toothy or polished you want your edge. a 220 grit edge can be very sharp, but its very toothy. 325 (coarse) is a little less toothy. 600, 1200...etc. I find even 1200 grit diamond is still toothy. I generally finish on a spyderco medium and fine if i feel like going that far. I have a strop, still experimenting with it, but I don't generally use it.
 
I made an adjustable jig that can hold any stone at any angle. The edge of the blade is pointed at the floor when grinding. When the bevels reach the apex using the coarse stone, successively finer stones are used to shine the tapers.image.jpeg
 
Now that you made this progress off the burr you want to watch your pressure now.
Reducing a burr and refining the edge takes a light touch.

I remember many times getting a sharp edge then going to the next stone and watching my progress going backwards.
This will happen but it is easy to fix.

For sharpening to be second nature it takes a good bit of practice plus use good lighting and some sort of magnification.
 
tiguy.

you need to mass produce that jig for sale. I'll bet you could make a fortune with it.

That looks like a quantum leap over the Sharpmaker. Especially if you make it big enough to handle 10X4 Duosharps.
 
The stone rests are 2 1/2” X 11 1/2” and and can utilize the 10 X 4 Duosharps. I am too busy to start a new business.
 
Alternating every stroke is not the ideal way to sharpen on mousepad with sandpaper, or on a stone etc, until you are trying to reduce/remove the burr.

It took me a bit to get the hang of freehanding.

Sandpaper and dense rubber backing (Tandy leather rubber strike pad...I found the mouse pad too soft, and it would round the apex too easily).

With stones, and ceramic, I also don't alternate sides every stroke until I am getting rid of the bur.

I found doing a regrind on a few knives with the sandpaper technique helped me freehand on stones better.

I've also found when freehand convexing, using the sandpaper on a glass pane with no backing helps.

It removes steel faster and there is significantly less likely to round the apex.

I have a lansky sharpening kit, which I used for years that also seemed to help me get better at figuring out when I had reached an apex, wire edge, and what it felt like taking it off.


I tend to sharpen with hand held diamond, and ceramic stones now, which adds a whole third tier of possibility to not keep angles consistent.



With hand covering, it helps to figure out what angle the edge wants to bite into the leather. Don't actually cut the leather, just check at which angle it bites.



Here is a convex edge done by hand. Convex edges get every bit as sharp as single angle bevels do.



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Free hainging hair whittled curls. This is from a 400 grit diamond stone to a strop with aluminum oxide on a cheap home made strop from a broken leather belt, and a stick kf aluminum oxide i paid $3 for over 15 years ago from the hardware store.
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I made an adjustable jig that can hold any stone at any angle. The edge of the blade is pointed at the floor when grinding. When the bevels reach the apex using the coarse stone, successively finer stones are used to shine the tapers.View attachment 1443875

The appearance of this jig is a little deceptive. One side is set to 15* off vertical; the other to 20* off vertical. These angles correspond to the Spyderco Sharpmaker which I often use for touch up work. So after grinding on one side to raise a burr, I rotate the jig 180* to raise a burr on the opposite side of the edge. Every time I switch sides, I either have to rotate the jig or walk around the table.
When the tapers are nice and shiny, coming off the finest stone, I will lightly deburr the edge, edge leading, placing the fine stone on the less acute rest.
 
I figured I could improve my work, so i dunked the old King stone and went to work on the 1000 grit side. I was able to raise a burr on each side and then I gave it some much lighter strokes to try removing it. Then I went to the leather strop with the Bark River black, then green. End result: edge looks much more consistent... and... it's a little sharper. Still doesn't take hair off super smoothly like my Buck 110 so I'm obviously not there yet.

Considering that the Buck 110 has a coarse-looking factory grind, I suppose I should work on achieving that level of sharpness with just my DMT 320 stone? I'm still a little in the dark about just when to move to finer grits, or if I should at all, since I'm hearing that even the 320 can get razor sharp.

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You can do this by doing sweeping edge leading passes of the entire blade on the side where you can feel the burr
I tried this and it seemed to work but it also kinda felt like I might be rounding the edge. It didnt feel all that sharp after I finished on the King stone but the stropping steps brought it back.

. a 220 grit edge can be very sharp, but its very toothy. 325 (coarse) is a little less toothy. 600, 1200...etc. I find even 1200 grit diamond is still toothy. I generally finish on a spyderco medium and fine if i feel like going that far. I have a strop, still experimenting with it, but I don't generally use it.
I sort of get what you mean because my 110 feels very toothy or rough on my thumb. Honestly I'm fine with that kind of edge if I can just get that level of sharpness too.

With hand covering, it helps to figure out what angle the edge wants to bite into the leather. Don't actually cut the leather, just check at which angle it bites.

Free hainging hair whittled curls. This is from a 400 grit diamond stone to a strop with aluminum oxide on a cheap home made strop from a broken leather belt, and a stick kf aluminum oxide i paid $3 for over 15 years ago from the hardware store.
That is certainly an amazing result and a couple beautiful knives.
My strop looks a lot rougher and less even than yours, I should probably make a better one. Are you doing edge leading or trailing strokes on the strop? Alternating or no? What grit is aluminum oxide approximately? I'm guessing my issues are with the stone stage though.

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Once again thank you all for the good info, it's a big help.
 
tiguy.

send the dimensions, and your permission to copy to Sal at Spyderco. If you're not interested in a new business, perhsps Sal will be interested in that tool.

Or maybe Ben Dale art Edge-Pro.
 
The way the 110, and many factory blades, seem to be finished are a pretty coarse belt, and then a buffing wheel or belt with some compound. Basically, the coarse belt sharpens, the buffer takes off the burr and slightly polishes. You can achieve this with a coarse stone and a strop. It just takes practice. You an easily round the edge on a strop as well, which is why I'm still not a big strop user (still practicing!)

If I want a very toothy but hair popping sharpness, apex and remove the burr on your coarsest stone, then get a much finer stone and refine the edge a little bit. This way you can slowly refine and get the exact toothiness/polish you want.

Last night I got my kabar dogs head in, and it was sharp out of the box. I did run it on my extra fine diamond stone for a little bit and it's popping hair now. Even cut me! Still a toothy edge, but I refined the factory coarse grit edge just a little and it's scary aggressive now. Slicing paper towel like a champ!
 
Just looking at your pictures, I think I have the same knockoff. I cannot ge it that sharp. My actual buck knives are easier to sharpen. The knockoff metal was so soft I rounded the edges by just looking at it.
 
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Last night I got my kabar dogs head in, and it was sharp out of the box. I did run it on my extra fine diamond stone for a little bit and it's popping hair now. Even cut me! Still a toothy edge, but I refined the factory coarse grit edge just a little and it's scary aggressive now. Slicing paper towel like a champ!

Maybe I'll try just refining the edge on the King 1000 grit instead of fully developing a burr on both sides. Or if that doesn't work out I suppose I can spring for the DMT extra fine. I'm cheap and try to get the tools at hand to work whenever possible.

Just looking at your pictures, I think I have the same knockoff. I cannot ge it that sharp. My actual buck knives are easier to sharpen. The knockoff metal was so soft I rounded the edges by just looking at it.

That would be interesting because I found this knife in a junk bucket in the closet, presumably left by my dad so it dates back to the 80s at least. Says Pakistan, which I feel like is an odd place for a clone buck knife to be made back then. I'm about ready to try my luck with some higher quality steel though :cool:
 
I can say, trying to get garbage steel sharp is not going to be as successful as well heat treated steel at appropriate hardness. ..

You may be completely wasting your time with a Pakistani knock off knofe in pot metal steel.

Buck's 420hc steel sharpens up lovely, with very little effort.

10xx series steels like 1065/1084,1095, 5160, 52100, AEBL, an many others are pretty easy to sharpen.

I had a garbage mystery stainless survival knive that would not sharpen for anything.

I also had an Gerber hunting knife growing up that would not hold an edge. It certainly was not cheaper than the Bucks I was using at the time, but just would not stay sharp, and was much harder to get a clean edge on.

D2, 440c, and many other steels that have harder carbide and lots more of them can be harder to sharpen without diamond stones. Diamond stones are cheap enough these days, that there is no reason not to have a few.

(I've used a few steels like A2, D2, cpm154, ats34 Cpm3V and others that diamond stones make quick work of).

I've nor used any of the true "super steels" when it comes to ultra high edge retention. I'd imagine diamond would be even better for those.







Id suggest using a knife that you know will have decent steel.

Buck is one of those. Their 420hc steel really is great steel to learn to sharpen on. You already know it can take a razor sharp edge.

Coming of a 320 to 400 grit stone, you should be able to get shaving results. As long as you get a clean apex,, and get rid of the bur. It will be toothier and grabbier.

For some uses, I prefer to leave the edge more toothy.

I typically go from the 325 to the 600 grit fine diamond. Sometimes I leave the edge at the 600 grit diamond. I have two folding diamond shapeners from DMT.
Then, I use medium and fine Spyderco ceramic sticks.
I had a Smith combo set (diamond stone and ceramic sticks) that served me well for 10+ years until I wore it out.

Nothing fancy.

My strop is pretty beat up these days. Only one side is really decent enough to still use. The rest are too cut up from stopping too fast, and making mistakes.

I need to make a new one.

Moving to too fine a stone, or jumping up in grits before apexing the edge is VERY common, and very frustrating.

Whether I'm using a guided set up, belt sander, diamond, or whetstone, its rhe same. Don't move on to finer stones if the edge is not already sharp at lower grit.

On a Lansky, even with the 120 grit coarse stone, you should have a sharp, bitey edge before moving on up.
 
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Don’t frustrate yourself on crappy steel, you’ll never get the results you’re looking for.
My advice:
- take a simple knife from a reputable maker, Victorinox SAK, Henkels paring knife, in a low alloy steel.
- a source of bright light
- with a coarse stone(Norton India, dmt blue 325, etc) grind and look under the light angling the knife to see the burr
- when you reach a full burr, repeat on the other side
- now, if everything went well, your bevels are meeting and you only have to refine the very apex, light edge leading passes changing the orientation(not the elevation) of the blade on the stone and playing with the light to see the hopefully reducing burr.
- test on newsprint, when you can slice it you’re close and should shave some, lighten up even more than you think possible and make some more passes, at this point you should shave hair of your arm and push cut newspaper, you have a killer edge
- practice and don’t go up in grit until you can shave off the coarse stone, that way you really learn.

of course this is my opinion and what worked for me YMMV
Edit for typo
 
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Tonight I worked on a new out of the box CV Case trapper. It's going to be a gift for someone so I couldn't screw this up:D

The factory edge would not shave. I tried using my newly acquired Honemaster, which just barely takes these thin trapper blades if you clamp them all the way at the rear of the blade. I got a burr on both sides using the DMT coarse and then tried removing it freehand using the light edge leading strokes. Result... both blades feel kinda sharp but neither will shave.

Just for the hell of it I stropped them with the Bark River black, then green, and they actually did get shaving sharp, so I'm proud to be giving this knife to my friend now. But I must still be leaving some sharpness on the table since I'm not getting the initial shaving sharp result off the DMT... right?

I think maybe the Honemaster angles were a bit messed up due to these blades barely fitting, or else I just failed in the burr removal phase. Are there any good videos that show exactly what removing the burr should look like? The descriptions like change the "orientation" of the blade are a little confusing.

By the way, the little instruction paper the Honemaster came with reads almost word for word like the consensus in this thread. I wish I had tried this approach sooner but I was just awash in all the conflicting sharpening info on the internet.
 
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Dude it sounds like you have cracked it, or at least got on the road towards cracking it - big congrats. With practise you’ll now get progressively better. You can only learn so much by reading and watching videos, the nuances can only be taught through experience.

What you have described above is a great example of the importance of deburring. On the stone you’ve managed to reduce the burr to a level that the strop can remove. The remnants on the knife stopped it from shaving but the strop removed it without creating a new burr.
 
Dude it sounds like you have cracked it, or at least got on the road towards cracking it - big congrats. With practise you’ll now get progressively better. You can only learn so much by reading and watching videos, the nuances can only be taught through experience.

What you have described above is a great example of the importance of deburring. On the stone you’ve managed to reduce the burr to a level that the strop can remove. The remnants on the knife stopped it from shaving but the strop removed it without creating a new burr.

Thanks, I really appreciate all your help.

This just raises another question for me. Your explanation makes it sound like I reached the terminal sharpness possible with the sharpening tools I used. I'm wondering if that's the case or not. This trapper is certainly sharp now, but still doesn't feel as sharp as my factory edge Buck 110 (but maybe that's the "toothiness"?).

Wouldn't another explanation be... I inadvertently rounded the apex a little while trying to remove the burr on the coarse stone, and the stropping brought it back some? Allegedly these Bark River compounds are supposed to actually make your edge sharper not just remove burrs... If I had made the trapper blades shaving sharp on the coarse stone alone then I should be able to take things even farther with the Bark River stuff right?
 
Congratulations,
Dmt coarse and cv steel is actually a difficult combination, specially if the stone is kind of new. It has so much cutting power in comparison with the hardness of the steel that to remove the burr and clean the apex you must learn that feather touch that for me “cracked the code” of sharpening.
Practice and once you master that combination you can sharpen on almost anything after it
Cheers mate
Edited to add:
? The descriptions like change the "orientation" of the blade are a little confusing.
What I mean by that is alternating the scratch pattern, edge leading always, on your light passes 90° to the stone, the move your hand(the one with the handle) forward until the blade is 45° on the surface of the stone(leading with the heel) then move your hand Backwards to the other 45° (leading with the tip of the knife).
I usually hold the stone in hand for this passes because it helps lightening up the pressure to the utmost level
Hope it helps
 
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Terminal sharpness, that’s a new one but very apt.

Your edge will be as sharp as it can get when you have a perfectly clean ‘v’ shape. Realistically you will never reach that stage and there will always be some edge rounding to a certain degree. The strop will have the tendency to round the apex when compared to the stone due to the softness of the leather conforming to the apex, not the case on the stone.

When deburring on a coarse stone it is very easy to flip the burr to one side and/or create a new burr. Hence the comment about the importance of pressure above.

Compounds of all types are very fine making this tendency much reduced which is why a lot of people find them so useful for the final deburring. If you do a good enough job on the stone you would get the same result from bare hanging leather.

To your last point the answer is maybe. There is a difference between sharpness and refinement. You can imagine the edge gained off a coarse stone akin to the edge of a saw blade. The finer grit you sharpen at the smaller the tooth size, the more refined it is and the smoother the cut, hence why straight razors have very polished edges. Sharpness on the other hand ultimately comes down to the width of the apex at the pointy end of the ‘v’

I think if you tried it out and gave the blade large amounts of passes on the strop you would dull the knife due to apex rounding
 
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