Can't get shaving sharp. What am I missing?

M

Mugflub

Joined
May 25, 2017
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I'm having a rough time getting my knives shaving sharp. They're fine for most practical uses, but I want to understand why I can't hit this mark. I'm suspecting it might just be that I move the knife back and forth rather quickly on the stone and don't have the most consistent angle, but it's not grossly inconsistent either (I don't think). Below is a photo of the most recent knife I sharpened. I find narrower knives are much more challenging, too.

My general progression looks like this:

- Reprofile on Norton 220 using lower angle. I don't pick a specific angle, I just try to keep it shallow and consistent. Back and forth motion until burr forms on one side. Repeat on the other. Alternate edge-leading strokes on each side (20ish) and finish with edge-trailing strokes on each side (10ish)
- Repeat same process of creating burr on each side, but with Norton 1000 grit.
- 4000 grit Norton stone, roughly 20 careful edge-leading and edge-trailing strokes on each side.
- 8000 grit Norton stone, roughly 20 careful edge-leading and edge-trailing strokes on each side.
- Leather strop, edge-trailing, 20ish strokes, slightly higher angle than sharpening, low pressure.

img_20200118_203150-jpg.69244
 
If it were me after the 1K Norton stone I would also do a few edge leading only pass's on both side's and make sure the burr is broken off,then I would use edge trailing and edge leading strokes on the 4K and use edge trailing on the 8K.

I find the edge trailing strokes are gentler on the edge or at least with my K03 and I get the sharpest result's the way.

Another important thing is what kind of knife is it that you are trying to sharpen,I some cheap kitchen knives that are stainless steel and they will not get shaving sharp but they will get decently sharp for a peace of crap knife.

You'll there are some steel's out there that just won't take a really sharp edge.
 
Speed on a stone by itself isn't a problem, but inconsistent angles are.
Also cheap steels can be surprisingly difficult to get a good edge on. Definitely unrewarding for the effort. If you look around the internet you can find stories of odd burr formations too.
That's why I prefer VG10 or better for kitchen cutlery. It's not snobbery so much as I know there will be no headache and I will get the results I want.
 
Welcome M Mugflub

I'm going to start with my observations from the picture. Now, keep in mind, it's tough to tell things from a lone shot as light and angles can make things appear much different than the reality. That side, that looks like a very wide bevel, maybe a bit of a recurve ground in, maybe some hints of a burr but yet maybe not really fully apexed up around the tip. Again, really hard to tell.

But let's take a step back...

1. Slow down. You don't want to go at a snail's pace but slow, deliberate, controlled strokes are where you should start. Speed comes from success and repetition

2. Angle reigns supreme. You can get away with the very subtle human induced fluctuations but the tighter you can keep it, the better. At this stage, you should not be varying the angle at any step. Grab another knife you haven't sharpened. Paint the edge bevel with a marker. Make a couple passes on your first stone and check the ink. If you're taking more off the shoulder, you're too low. More off the very edge, you're too high. You'll have uneven, stubborn spots, that's just the nature of factory grinds and adjusting to your style, but overall, you want this as even as possible. Grind until the ink is gone and you've fully raised a burr along the entire edge. Do not compromise here.

3. Same thing on the other side.

4. Deburr. People have different approaches here. First, forget counting the strokes. Different steels on different stones will take different strokes. In general, I like one or two very light edge leading strokes to start. Be careful here as it is easy to raise up too far and ruin your apex. I know this all too well from experience. You can skip this altogether though and go with very light edge trailing strokes. Again, if you're not dealing with super steels, try just a couple to start and try to maintain the same angle as you sharpened. Mark the bevel again if you want. I like a couple light passes on hard bare leather for most steels afterward but many people don't. Lots of guys don't like to strop on anything but the stone but I have a fondness for leather.

5. Test the edge. You should be able to shave arm hair at this stage. It might pull a bit but it should shave. If not, there is zero point in moving on. You can shave arm hair off very course stones. If you can't, you've done something wrong in the above. For me, the most likely place to mess up is in the deburring. Maybe I mess up the angle right off or do too many strokes and that ends up messing it up or whatever. But for me, if I'm going to mess up the edge, it is this step.

6. Be honest with yourself. Get the edge right off that first stone. Don't pretend or try to convince yourself it's okay and move to the next one. You'll just make things worse and end up more flustered. I know, I've done that many times. In your mind, I would recommend you consider that there are no stones beyond that first course stone and whatever stropping you choose to do. Put all the other stones out of your mind. If it isn't right, start over. Re-mark the bevel, work up a burr, flip, etc. Pay attention to what you do. Speed, pressure, angle, etc.

7. Decide on the edge that you really want. Higher grits aren't always better edges for different steels and applications. I tend to prefer course edges in most all cases. Going up to really high grit stones has it's place but for general cutting, especially with softer steels in the kitchen, I like courser edges.

But again, it has to be right off that first stone or the rest is for naught.

Angle. Burr. Deburr without ruining the apex. Honesty. Adjust, be done, or move to the next stone.
 
El Chaps makes a lot of very good points. Done correctly you should be able to shave your aim hair off the 220 stone. Off the 1000 stone it should be easily push cutting thin paper against the grain.

I’d advise to not progress past those stones until you have a suitable edge else you will just be wasting your time.

From the photos (and unless your knife is very thick behind the edge) you have a very very shallow angle there. For a kitchen knife 15-17 degrees per side is sufficient. You may find that the bevel on the opposite side of the knife is very narrow which would indicate you are unevenly sharpening both side.

In addition to all the other advice which you should follow it may be worth getting an angle guide (literally a wedge of plastic/wood). You can buy them or make you own. This will give you a reference until practise develops muscle memory or you learn to feel the bevel angle on the stone.

Also, don’t be too structured with stroke per side, especially when starting out. In my experience this can be counterproductive. As a beginner your angle control won’t be great, therefore on some strokes you won’t be hitting the edge - especially an issue when deburring. Keep feeling for the burr along the whole length, only switch sides when you have it
 
So, I generally get my knives shaving sharp with 1500 grit stone.

I have 3000 grit stone too, and I'm also waiting higher grit stone to arrive. And yes, 3000 grit stone is better, but 1500 is enough.

I don't draw my blades backwards at all, I prefer to sharpen by method of pretending you want to slice off very thin slices of whetstone, 5 strokes one side, 5 strokes other side... repeat several times. However my angles are consistent, and I have some experience.

I also noticed that my SK-5 Recon Tanto sharpens up way faster than ame sized mystery stainless steel kitchen knife. And 52100 Drop Forged hunter is smaller than Recon Tanto, I only had to sharpen it once so it's hard to gauge. But from my experience non stainless steel takes edge easier and it gets much sharper with much less effort. So, steel of your blade plays a major role too.

My advice is to get a non expensive carbon steel blade, just relax and start it slow. Once your angles are consistent you'll notice it and you'll be able to go faster while still maintaining consistent angle.

I hope I was able to help.
 
Get inexpensive norton crystolon stone,work up to burr on both sides,and then take off the burr with light strokes.It should be shaving hair easily,regardless of the steel,soft steels keep burr longer,so be patient.Maybe the knife has crappy heat treat too,you never know,i ran into couple that couldnt sharpen because 9f ht,but on 99.99%of knives it works,its just practice.
 
Ps.buy some opinel or victorinox paring or utility knives and try on them,am not sure what brand is knife on picture,but these well known manufacturers have pretty good ht and quality knives for price.
 
wade7575 said:
and make sure the burr is broken off
Click to expand...

Ourorboros said:
If you look around the internet you can find stories of odd burr formations too.
Click to expand...

Eli Chaps said:
4. Deburr. People have different approaches here. First, forget counting the strokes. Different steels on different stones will take different strokes. In general, I like one or two very light edge leading strokes to start. Be careful here as it is easy to raise up too far and ruin your apex. I know this all too well from experience. You can skip this altogether though and go with very light edge trailing strokes. Again, if you're not dealing with super steels, try just a couple to start and try to maintain the same angle as you sharpened. Mark the bevel again if you want. I like a couple light passes on hard bare leather for most steels afterward but many people don't. Lots of guys don't like to strop on anything but the stone but I have a fondness for leather.

Angle. Burr. Deburr without ruining the apex. Honesty. Adjust, be done, or move to the next stone.
Click to expand...

Sounds exactly like some of my initial sharpening sessions. I thought I had gone by the book and sharpness still eluded me. In the end the knife was very sharp under a wire burr that hung on the entire time.

Lots of great advice ^^^^^ as well on steps and progression.
 
An angle guide might help. Get one that clamps to the spine of the blade. Or, tape a coin to each side of the blade for a cheapo method.
 
My suggestion is to just go slower for start, to have more control over strokes and more consistent angle.
Second suggestion is to get a knife made by some more known brand, I also reccomend something in standard non stainless steel. It's fairly cheap, offers good performance and best thing is - those steels are known to be very easy to sharpen and get scary sharp really fast.
 
A 140 grit atoma with some stropping will shave arm hair. Consistent angle on the sharpening and the strop. Imo I would stick to one stone and strop. When you get that down then do whatever you want. Jmo
 
Looks like it has uneven areas. Given the progression you describe it should be more mirror like. I would guess the bevel is 220 grit or less. It is pretty worn down from what it was. It may need major thinning to cut well as a kitchen knife.
Shaving sharpness wouldn't matter about thin behind the edge though. Re read Eli's points.
 
Lots of great advice, I really appreciate it. Some videos make it look deceptively easy, but this really is a craft that requires a lot of practice. I suppose it's "easy" if you just want a knife that cuts food decently, but the coveted razor sharpness is still a ways away for me.

I will focus on the lower grit stones for now and going slowly. Also will make sure to deburr properly.

To clarify, this is a Wusthof, but I don't think it's a particularly high-end one. Should have posted a pic of the other side. And the other side does, in fact, have a much narrower bevel. Beginning to think I'm angle blind. I have angle guides and will use them more. Would love to get to a place where I don't need them.
 
And I think the main issue is consistency. I see at least 3 distinctly different angles on that blade, so yeah, using an angle guide to get you started and build up muscle memory in the arms. Takes time, practice, and observation skills. you'll get there, I have no doubt.
 
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