Carbon Fiber/Titanium Laminate?

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Rick Haney Design

Rick Haney Design

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I've got a question,How do you laminate CF to Ti?Could you laminate stainless to CF?I would be interested to hear if there's a low tech method without the use of a autoclave(vacuum curer).Any info would be appreciated. :)Rick.
 
Can you just use epoxy? I've always assumed that that Japanses tactical dude, people like Warren Thomas, etc just take a piece of CF and a piece of Ti, glue, clamp, grind, finish, voila! Never tried it myself, but this would seem to make sense to me.
 
That's kind of what I was thinking,Wonder if the epoxy is room temp curing type?I was doing a search on CF methods,They talk about vacuum bagging technique.Not quite sure what they are talking about there.I'd like to try to see if it is doable.The glue&clamp method might just work,Still doing a little researching.Thanks. :D Rick.
 
Chiro75 said:
Can you just use epoxy? I've always assumed that that Japanses tactical dude, people like Warren Thomas, etc just take a piece of CF and a piece of Ti, glue, clamp, grind, finish, voila! Never tried it myself, but this would seem to make sense to me.
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I think its quite a bit more involved than that. For one thing....if thats all there was to it, then alot more people would be doing it I would think.
For another, think about what its like to grind Ti. I haven't tried it myself, but I know that its slow going with lots of heat and sparks. Generates enough heat that the filings can catch on fire. Thats not a very good environment for an epoxy bond to hold up under. I don't think you can much over 200 degrees or so and have much hope of the bond being very strong. Maybe not even that hot.
 
In the making of a CF or other laminate it is important not to have any voids.Voids will seriously degrade the strength. Fastening CF to metal could be done by clamping instead of a vacuum. Epoxy should work but make sure you have a chemically clean surface.If it has a very smooth surface rough it up a bit with sandpaper ,clean with acetone or other solvent.Do the same with the CF.
 
Matt, I think we're talking about two different things. I think Capricorn is looking up info on manufacture of carbon fiber from CF cloth and the "ground substance" or whatever epoxy/agent is used to stick it together. I honestly believe that the guys using CF/Ti hybrids in knives are just gluing it together. I may be wrong, though.

If you use a Cubitron belt in something like 36-60 grit at slow speeds you make almost no sparks when grinding Ti and it stays pretty cool, particularly if you dunk it a lot. Then just carefully work up in grits and be sure to stay cool. I have Ti and CF lying around, so maybe I'll give it a shot and report in.
 
I talked to Warren Thomas about his process and materials. He would not tell me the name of the adhesive, but he did say it was developed for aerospace use and was not available to the public. He spent several months tracking it down.
 
Capricorn - Unless they've changed things since my lab days - an autoclave and a vacuum chamber are nearly opposites of each other.Autoclaves are a sort of pressure cooker for sterilizing.
 
What is the significance of the process you are talking about ? What products are you trying to reproduce ?Original question is -" How do you laminate CF to TI ?" For what purpose other than handle scales ?
 
Chuck, good to know. Several makers are using the stuff, so someone other than WT must be in on the secret! Doh!
 
bladsmth said:
Capricorn - Unless they've changed things since my lab days - an autoclave and a vacuum chamber are nearly opposites of each other.Autoclaves are a sort of pressure cooker for sterilizing.
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Yep, they've changed things since your lab days.
There are two types of autoclaves... Pressure and vacuum.
I have an old vacuum autoclave in my garage...
Real nice for making laminates, as I can run a vacuum and heat at the same time.
Wish I knew what adhesives Warren was using. He's done some interesting work.
 
Thanks guys,It seems that there are certain epoxies that can be used when gluing CF sheet to a thin metal core.Prep seems to be a important in acheiving a sound bond,And the correct epoxy.Heat generated from grinding looks like it could be a minor obstacle,I was mostly interested in how I could bond a thin core such as S-30V,154CM to a CF sheet.I have some F-18 pieces that would work once I find the right epoxy to bond with,I'm currently not grinding my blade with a belt grinder.I'm using a flex shaft with cylinder carbide bits to rough the bevels in,Then I clean it up with mounted stones.Finish up with 120 grit/240 then after HT finish 320.I'd show you how the first batch of S-30V blades look,But digital camera is history. :grumpy: :grumpy: Rick.
 
Oh, the steel would have to be HT'd already, so that makes sense. I'd like to see what you're making!
 
I've just got back from HT, 4 tactical folder blades,A balisong blade.Jeff Hall stuck my small batch in with his,I was a little concerned about warpage due to the thinner geometry I get when the blade is basically sculpted.I was glad they turned out. :) :)Dude,I'm really excited about how the blades look after I'd finish them up at 320 grit!Just wish I could take some digital pics of them,I've sculpted 1/4" F-18 CF for carry clip.Looks trick!Since I've yet to afford a good grinder like a Bader 111,I'll send them back to Jeff to sharpen & etch the logo.Hopefully when I sell the folders & balisong,I just might be able to purchase a real grinder.Not the cheap 1X30 belt grinder I have now! :( Bladeforums will be where I post pics first,Stay tuned. :D Rick.
 
just to clarify, are you talking about putting together cured cf with titanium, or trying to form the cf onto the metal from scratch? if you are attaching cured cf to a metal i would use epoxy and clamp the surface like any other handle material, if you are talking about laying up a piece of ti in a composite and forming the cf around it, that's a whole new game.
vacuum forming/baging or even infusion is for making a composite part from scratch, you put your epoxy on your cf fabric and squeeze out excess and then put in a bag under vacuum to pull out excess resin and help mold better
www.fibreglast.com has good beginner info if that's what your after

sounds like your bonding cured cf to something, i would recommend the loctite e120hp epoxy, i found and article about it and cf here

http://www.loctite.lt/int_henkel/loctite_us/binarydata/pdf/ACH180.pdf

you may want to look on fibreglast about boding to titanium, i remember something about cf not liking to bond to aluminum for some reason
don't know if that holds true for ti or not
good luck
 
In my experience it has been hard to get anything to bond well to titanium. I doubt epoxy would be very permanent to be honest.
 
Thanks for the tip on the loctite epoxy,Actually I'm looking at the possibilities of bonding cured CF sheet to stainless.It was mentioned heat generated by grinding should be minimal because your only grinding the edge of the core,But still,I think you would have to keep the CF from delaming from the core material.Say,I'm wanting .160 blade thickness,I was thinking how thin the core should be..060 CF bonded to .040 stainless core,What do you think?Can you get Cutlery stainless at that thickness?Or just have some surface ground to desired thickness?Then I have to consider washers,Bronze washers would probably wear too much with the CF.Teflon or nylatron would be choice.Now the detent ball,I thought about recessing the CF just where the lock bar travels for detent purposes.Anyone have some 440 that thin to try out?I'm looking to see if this is doable.With any new idea,Trial & error is always the best path to success! :D Rick.
 
Loctite 326 will work on carbon steel CF laminate and heat is not a problem with the loctite. Watch out for delamination during flexing. :cool:
 
Black toughened Locktite 410. This one was Stellite bonded to CF with G10 handles. Titanium pins.

Stellite works great for these since it doesn't need heat treatment. The secret is getting them perfectly flat and a good alu oxide blast for bonding the two.
 

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Kit,I didn't think about stellite or talonite.I'm thinking about aquiring some of it.I noticed you pinned it together,What material did you use for the pins?Did you bond CF to one side or both?Couldn't tell by the pic.Where do you get your stellite?Is talonite basically the same?Thanks,Rick. :D
 
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