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Cast pipe tomahawks
- Thread starter dannyvp1
- Start date
- Joined
- Nov 11, 2007
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- 217
Yes and no. Depends on what steel they are cast from.
I will purchase two pipe hawk heads cast in 6150 steel from the R.E. Davis company. My intentions will be to finish the heads and give them a proper heat treatment, then give them a good workout on the wood pile. If they pass my test, I will consider selling them as finished pipe hawks on my website as an alternative to my hand-forged hawks.
Cast 6150 steel with .50% carbon should give you a good cutting edge, not great like a forging, but acceptable. Can it take some abuse? That will depend on the heat treatment, which can be a little tricky on a hawk or axe head. It has to be differentially heat treated with the eye as the softest part of the head and gradually getting harder as you go down the blade to the cutting edge.
If the eye is too hard, it will eventually fail under the stress of chopping.
For those who have some interest in this, I will write a "report" on my testing and post it on this forum.
Stephen
http://www.north-river-custom-knives.com
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2002
- Messages
- 2,954
It's cool to see those RE Davis 'hawks getting some press. About 2 years ago, we organized a group buy in this forum in order to convince them to offer 6150 as an option.
In general, I'd pretty much agree that most cast pipe hawks can't take abuse, since most of them are made from pure junk steel. I searched off and on for years, and RE Davis is the only company I'm aware of yet offering a pipe hawk cast from decent steel. They did also offer them in 4140 though, which generally isn't heat treated to the hardness range we've come to expect from other good wood chopping hatchets. But it should be plenty tough for throwing and whatnot. I understand 4140 is regularly used for cast hammers, and it's rare for toughness to be a serious issue with them.
In the end, cast may not be as strong and tough as wrought steel, but I think with a decent heat treat 6150 should be more than adequate. At least you certainly can't find a better pipe hawk for anywhere near this same price range. (or at least I couldn't)
When I got mine I enquired on another forum about how to best deal with these "as cast" heads, and got some great insight. It can't hurt to check it out: Grain refinement & heat treat on cast pipe hawk head
In general, I'd pretty much agree that most cast pipe hawks can't take abuse, since most of them are made from pure junk steel. I searched off and on for years, and RE Davis is the only company I'm aware of yet offering a pipe hawk cast from decent steel. They did also offer them in 4140 though, which generally isn't heat treated to the hardness range we've come to expect from other good wood chopping hatchets. But it should be plenty tough for throwing and whatnot. I understand 4140 is regularly used for cast hammers, and it's rare for toughness to be a serious issue with them.
In the end, cast may not be as strong and tough as wrought steel, but I think with a decent heat treat 6150 should be more than adequate. At least you certainly can't find a better pipe hawk for anywhere near this same price range. (or at least I couldn't)
When I got mine I enquired on another forum about how to best deal with these "as cast" heads, and got some great insight. It can't hurt to check it out: Grain refinement & heat treat on cast pipe hawk head
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2002
- Messages
- 2,954
I've long been at odds with the traditional wisdom on this subject. I don't think the eye needs to be as hard as the cutting edge, but see no reason why it can't be at least hardened and tempered down a little softer to a spring temper or somethin'. (assuming that wouldn't put it directly into an embrittlement zone with that particular steel) If the edge can stand up to a given hardness without breaking off, then the much thicker eye should also be fine. I have seen eyes bent out of shape from being way too soft though.
- Joined
- Nov 11, 2007
- Messages
- 217
Usually when you see a hawk or an axe with the eye bent out of shape, it is more likely abuse than the steel being too soft. Striking the poll of an axe with a steel hammer or using it to drive nails is a sure way to destroy it.
If we go back to the 18th. century and look at the hawks and trade axes forged by these early smiths, we will find that just about all of them used iron for the heads and a strip of steel for the cutting edge.
Iron does not contain carbon and is quite soft, in comparison to steel. Adding carbon to iron gives us steel and the hardness we need for a good edge.
These early tools were used almost daily, sometimes by several generations. Occasionally they had to be resteeled by a blacksmith because the cutting edge was filed away with use. It is rare to find such a tool that the eye failed because it was to soft, in fact, I have never seen one, but I have seen a lot of abused tools.
I once had a neighbor who proudly showed me his brand new GB axe while he was splitting kindling wood. When the axe "stuck" in a larger piece of wood, he, without any hesitation, reached for his steel hammer and hit the poll of his GB. When I told him that he was going to ruin his axe that way, he replied, "nonsense, this is the best axe money can buy". He brought it over a few days later to see if I could "fix it".
Stephen
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2002
- Messages
- 2,954
What is abuse? I think of it as an activity that will almost certainly destroy or seriously damage the item in question. I'm not sure how to word my point here without coming off abrasively. But basically, hardened and tempered steel should be able to easily handle much more strenuous tasks than soft steel. I'm not telling anybody to beat on their hatchet with a sledge hammer or anything, but properly heat treated steel should be able to withstand tasks that would be abusive to the same tool made from iron/mild.
Back in the day they used wrought iron for the bodies of many cutting tools because good hand teemed steel was expensive stuff in comparison. I regularly use an old draw knife that has a steel edge forge welded to a wrought iron body. It works, but I'd have a hard time believing they went through the effort of this construction because the physical/performance properties of wrought iron were actually superior to the steel.
In this case, since we're talking about heads uniformly cast from heat treatable steel, I guess I just don't see any reason not to take advantage of it, if you can handle heat treating the rest of the head too. That's all. Heat treatment lets us choose how we want to compromise strong & hard vs. soft and tough. We don't have to leave it hard and brittle as glass, and we don't have to leave it as soft as silly putty, either.
By the way, I'd like to hear some more details about what actually happened to that GB axe.
Cheers.
-the possum
Back in the day they used wrought iron for the bodies of many cutting tools because good hand teemed steel was expensive stuff in comparison. I regularly use an old draw knife that has a steel edge forge welded to a wrought iron body. It works, but I'd have a hard time believing they went through the effort of this construction because the physical/performance properties of wrought iron were actually superior to the steel.
In this case, since we're talking about heads uniformly cast from heat treatable steel, I guess I just don't see any reason not to take advantage of it, if you can handle heat treating the rest of the head too. That's all. Heat treatment lets us choose how we want to compromise strong & hard vs. soft and tough. We don't have to leave it hard and brittle as glass, and we don't have to leave it as soft as silly putty, either.
By the way, I'd like to hear some more details about what actually happened to that GB axe.
Cheers.
-the possum