Cattaraugus questions

[Esee4me]

Hello all! Im new to Blade forums, but not necessarily new to knives. I EDC a esee 3 at all times when not at home, and I love it. I recently picked up an old cattaraugus 225Q. I originally thought to just put it up as part of a WW2 knife collection Im starting. but...man, I have to say that holding that big chunk of 1095 in the hand just begs you to use it. Here is my quandary; The knife was bought very cheap off of craigslist from someone who had no idea what it was and didnt really care. It came with the original sheath, and it is in ok shape, with the only real damage being the reciever side of the snap strap being missing completely. After close inspection I actually found just what you love to see on these old sheaths...a name and serial number on the back of the sheath. Its VERY faint, it wont even show in pictures. However I can definitely see the last name King, with the first name being Chris or possibly Curtis. Under that are the numbers, I cant make them all out definitely yet, but there are definitely at least 8 numbers. The knife condition itself is pretty good, has the barest amount surface rust at the base of the blade, with the rest having the old knfe patina. Its dull, has scratches from being used as a crowbar, but gives great character to it. The leather washer handle is all there, and good and tight. The pommel is completely intact and in good shape. Only thing loose on the whole knife is the cross guard is a tiny bit rattly. I just dont know what to do with this knife. What is an acceptable amount of restoration if I decide to just keep it as a collector/conversation piece? Can I remove the small amount of surface rust and sharpen it without ruining any collector value? If so, whats the best way to do this and maintain the patina? If I decide to use it Ill just5 go full bore and polish it all up right. The handle I wont change at all, it fills my hand perfectly. Anyway, sorry for the novella here, and Ill try to get some pics up tomorrow. Thanks for any and all suggestions.

 

[Thomas Linton]

It is probably the most commonly issued sheath knife of WW II. They were issued to to Army personnel, including paratroops (I bought one that came with a picture of an 11th Airborne trooper wearing it.), and Marines (One of my uncles traded a Marine some smokes for one because Unc thought the Mk I issued to him was too flimsy.)

As a collectable, I would use no more than fine (OOO) steel wool and oil to remove the rust.

The sheaths are made of thin leather and are often in rough shape. The writing is a nice feature.

They are always on ePrey in a wide range of condition.

 

[BladeScout]

The 225Q is a good quality knife and IMO a 'cut' above the rest of its WWII brethren.

Restore it gently as mentioned by TL and use it - thats what it was meant for.

I have several with this one being my first 225Q and my favourite Cattaraugus by far:

 

[james terrio]

They're great knives. I say clean it up to whatever degree you want. There so many made that unless you have some serious provenance on it (you can prove it was owned and used by a MOH winner or famous General) it's probably worth just about what you paid for it. Leave the old sheath alone, have a new sturdier one made, and use that bad boy!

This one was brought to me by a woman whose father carried it "on every camping and fishing trip we ever went on" as she said. She wanted to pass it on to her son. I talked her out of a full restoration - it would have cost her nearly as much as a new custom. Like yours, it was in very solid shape so all I did was clean it with 0000, wipe a little neatsfoot oil on the handle, touch up the edge and make her a new sheath. It was a fun and easy project, and still carries decades of Grandpa's patina. :thumbup:

 

[JD Mandrell]

Unless it's near mint, there are to many of them to be really valuable collectables, use it!

I found on in a pile of old knives years ago, cleaned it up and had a kydex sheath made for it, it's one of the best fixed blades I own.

 

[BladeScout]

They're great knives. I say clean it up to whatever degree you want. There so many made that unless you have some serious provenance on it (you can prove it was owned and used by a MOH winner or famous General) it's probably worth just about what you paid for it. Leave the old sheath alone, have a new sturdier one made, and use that bad boy!
(-PIC-)
This one was brought to me by a woman whose father carried it "on every camping and fishing trip we ever went on" as she said. She wanted to pass it on to her son. I talked her out of a full restoration - it would have cost her nearly as much as a new custom. Like yours, it was in very solid shape so all I did was clean it with 0000, wipe a little neatsfoot oil on the handle, touch up the edge and make her a new sheath. It was a fun and easy project, and still carries decades of Grandpa's patina. :thumbup:

Its very subjective of course and the owner can do what ever he wants with his knife (its his after all), but speaking only for myself, I find it a pity to polish the blade on an old WWII knife to a mirror finish. There are plenty of 225s with highly polished blades on eflay from time to time. People who dont know better buy them too.
First of all, it looks like 'carp' (only my opinion, as mentioned) and secondly, its clearly seen on the markings and the fuller of some of these knives, that they most likely were severely pitted and pockmarked, as they are so polished, that a lot of material has been removed.

 

[james terrio]

...but speaking only for myself, I find it a pity to polish the blade on an old WWII knife to a mirror finish...

I agree. 50 or 60 years of patina looks cool and isn't hurting anything. :thumbup: But as you say, to each their own.

 

[Esee4me]

Pics as promised

The last pic shows the last name if you look careful to the left of the glare spot.

 

[orca8589]

I have one I bought from an antique shop here. It's a great user, in my opinion it's easily as tough as any regular production knife (Buck, Kabar, etc.) made today.

For yours, I'd have another sheath made, save the old one, and put this old Cat to good use. My only advice would be to maybe take fine emery cloth to the handle - scuff it just a little, to increase it's "gripiness". The handle on mine was so slick it was almost too hard to keep it properly oriented in my hand while I was using it.

~Chris

 

[Esee4me]

I've had the thought that if I end up not liking the handle I would just buy a set of leather washers and form my own to my liking and save the original in case I want to put it back.

 

[james terrio]

They're a bit tricky to take apart without destroying the handle. Those "nails" in the pommel are actually threaded with a very slow twist. My personal Catt was easy... the leather was so rotten I just peeled it off, and knocked the screws loose from underneath.

 

[BRL]

The Catty Q is an awesome thing because they're old and cool, they have an amazingly great profile, and they're also cheap and everywhere. I'm going to tear into mine, gussy it all up, and use the bejeebus out of it.... there are plenty of OG oldies out there to stick in a drawer.

When i get around to it ima have Richard J put new handle rings and a terrifying edge on it and get a Skystorm sheath. I like the patina so I'll leave the blade finish alone. I read that the OG sheaths are harder to come by, so I'll sell mine to someone that'll appreciate it.

 

[james terrio]

There's a reason why original 225Q sheaths are hard to find in good condition. Frankly, they're cheap junk. They're made of very thin leather, and worse, do not have any welt to protect the stitching from the edge.

I do not know why Catt made these well-designed, profoundly-durable, long-lasting, heavy-duty knives and put them in such weak, inferior sheaths.

 

[Charlie Mike]

Here's mine. I tore it down and reground the point a bit. Made the new handle with a bit of a sub hilt.

 

[Thomas Linton]

Best guess is that the sheaths were made to gov't spec. by another vendor. They are made so a right-handed cross-draw brings the knife out with the edge up - the preferred "knife fighting" grip of the day. One of the pictures here http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/3407-cattaraugus-225q-repro-sheath/ shows a G.I. wearing a pistol on the right and the knife on his left side.

Reproductions of the sheath have come on the market from time to time.

 

[orca8589]

They're a bit tricky to take apart without destroying the handle. Those "nails" in the pommel are actually threaded with a very slow twist. My personal Catt was easy... the leather was so rotten I just peeled it off, and knocked the screws loose from underneath.

View attachment 333447

James - if you would, please post a pic of those two pins that are driven in beside the tang. I'm almost certain that in an old patent drawing, those were not two pins, but a "U"-shaped part that gave extra strength to the butt, I assume for hammering. I'll see if I can find that drawing.

~Chris

 

[james terrio]

Chris, I'll try to get a pic of the pins tomorrow (the knife is still disassembled... you know how it is, got busy with paying jobs and no time to play with my own toys )

Is this the patent drawing you mean?

 

[orca8589]

James - I saw a different drawing, and I think I've figured out what I thought I saw. There are three plates on the butt of the 225Q, and in the drawing I saw the first plate (after the last leather washer) was drawn in such a way that I thought the pins were a "U"-shape. In looking at my 225Q, the way I thought the butt was built is very impractical, especially for a war-time knife. It would just add unneeded steps to building the knife.

Thanks for the patent drawing - I'm saving that one. :thumbup:

~Chris

 

[kwackster]

This is my modified Cattaraugus 225Q; when i got it for cheap it was missing part of it's tip and had no sheath, so i decided to modify the blade as well as the handle.
I changed the grind from a saber flat to a saber hollow with a zero edge with the help of my trusted Tormek T7 wetgrinder, and then applied a convex microbevel of around 35/40-ish degrees inclusive with the help of a 6 micron diamond paste loaded strop.
Also ground a new point with a bit of a bowie shape.
The 1095 steel holds a shaving sharp edge for quite some time and doesn't buckle even when chopping wood.
The leather handle was shaped to my liking with sandpaper and i gave it a few coats of Nikwax for protection.
It's currently my most used knife for daytrips in the forest as it cuts wood extremely well.

 

[never too sharp]

I've had good luck bringing a few neglected leather handles back to life with leather conditioner(Lexol). As the leather ages, it dries and shrinks. Clean it well with a glycerin-based cleaner, let it dry and saturate the handle with conditioner. You'll want to get the conditioner into every possible crack, crevice and gap. Repeat until the leather has swollen enough to tighten the pommel and guard. This may take more than a few applications.

This Case had a serious wiggle in the guard. The whole knife was in pretty rough shape when I received it. For the record, I didn't do the regrind, just re-pointed what had already been done to it.