Cerakote FAQ

[shotgunner]

A series of Bladesmith oriented questions concerning the use and application of Cerakote have come up. I hope this is the correct place to address these questions.

What is Cerakote? - Cerakote is a high tech coating for objects such as knives and firearms. It's qualities include extreme abrasion resistance, extreme impact resistance and extreme chemical resistance. Laboratory tests have shown that a properly coated metal piece can withstand over 3000 hours of salt spray without any change to the coating or the metal underneath.

How is it applied? - Cerakote is appied using a small HVLP spray gun, similar to those used for automotive finishes.

What surface prep must I do before sending the blade in for coating? - Cerakote is applied after a fresh sand blast. The blast is performed with 120 grit garnet or Alox. I use garnet. You should have your blade ready to accept this gentle grit blast.

=======added 10/2/10========= Finish your blade so there are no visible surface irregularities. Anything visible before coating will be there after coating.

How thick is the coating? - A properly applied Cerakote coating is approximately 1 mil (0.001") thin.

What colors can I get? - Cerakote comes in 40 colors. Further, these colors can be combined into a variety of camouflage patterns. Patterns may be freehand or utilizing stencils. Stencils lend well to creativity. For instance, we could have skull stencils made. Using a skull stencil we could produce a two color finish that include a black knife with pink skulls. I am being a bit silly but it is illustrative of what can be accomplished.

Does the second or third color add dimension? - Yes. About 1 mil per color.

Is Cerakote a heat cure product? - Yes. The heat profile for blades is 1 hour at 250 Fahrenheit (F) and then air cooled. I do not believe this will effect any heat treat. We apply it to heat treated guns all the time.

What about handle materials? - We commonly apply Cerakote to Glass filled nylon and Carbon fiber gun products. Because the impact and abrasion resistance of the coating relies somewhat on that the substrate, we can utilize a shorter and cooler bake for synthetics. At my factory training we utilized 200F for 20 minutes on synthetics. I checked here and learned that the various Micarta products are safely heated to 250F.

What about wood handles? - We do not apply Cerakote to wood products. I believe this is due to the soft nature of most woods compared to metallic substrates.

Who makes Cerakote? Where can I learn more? NIC Industries is the manufacturer. They have an extensive knowledgebase about this terrific product listed on their website. Please have a look.

I hope this gives us a solid start on getting you the information you need. My goal is to provide bladesmiths another tool in their arsenal. Allowing them a wider product line and ultimately a mutually beneficial relationship. I cannot think of anything else to add. But, I am not a knifemaker. I am certain you will have more questions or concerns. If after you have read this something more comes up, please address it here. I will answer as quickly as I can.

 

[NickWheeler]

Thanks for the post Scott!

Scott generously offered 6 guys the chance to get a blade done for free to get the ball rolling on this.

I have some sheets of O1 that I have been wanting to get water jet cut into some simple utility (back-pack, hunting...) type of blades but have been hesitant to go with a full tang due to rust issues.

This coating might be the answer to my problem. I have one of the prototypes heat-treated and just need to finish grind it and get some scales fit to the blade before I can send it to Scott.

I will post pictures before, after, and also give my thoughts on the whole deal once we get that far.

I watched the video Scott put up on youtube of coating a can and then crushing it, and it is MOST impressive!!!

 

[Troop]

Scott, I'm getting that blade ready to ship to you soon.
Just to make sure, it's O.K. to send it to you all scaley... right from the quench (and tempers)?
OR
Do you want it finished to some specific grit?

I'm concerned that if it's all scaley, it won't finish up nice.

 

[shotgunner]

I'm concerned that if it's all scaley, it won't finish up nice.

Me too. I have no clue what is under that 'scaley stuff'. I am sure it will come off when I blast. But, will the surface be even clean enough underneath?

You gents know better than I what is underneath. Plus, it seems there is a 'de-carburized' zone where the carbon content of the surface metal has been oxidized away, that must be removed.

Because it keeps being asked, I will say that you should clean up your blade to 120 grit. Then I will blast at 120 grit.

The last three days have been very educational for me and I have yet to see a knife! Makes me wonder if I won't start making knives myself.

May I toss a question back at ya? Why is heat treat not done with the blade wrapped inside of stainless steel foil? Seems this technique is done at least in some cases.

 

[NickWheeler]

Well, I sure wouldn't sent one right after the quench!!!


Scott, to answer your question- Many blades are heat-treated in a ss foil wrap or in an argon purged chamber....but those are usually air hardening steels (which are typically stainless).

Most of the steels that I think people would want to get coated, will be of a simple carbon type that are oil quenched. Add to that, many guys are heating their blades in a forge which can really ugly up a blade.

I heat my blades in either a digitally controlled motlen salt bath, or a digitally controlled heat treating kiln. Quenching into commercial oils, I have very little scale...but I still would NOT send one to you that way hoping it would clean up.

Personally, I plan on taking the blade to about 320X as I want it to be a quick and painless operation for you to just sweep over the blade with the blast media. That makes it easier on you, and it lessens the chance of the sand blast washing out my grind lines (the crisp lines where bevels intersect, I don't mean the sanding lines from the grinder).

Also, the blade is going to need to have the handle already fit before you send it. If you fit the handle after Scott coats it, then shape everything down, you'll grind the coating off.

At least these are my feelings at this point.

I'm excited for the opportunity to work with Scott on this.

 

[Troop]

Me too. I have no clue what is under that 'scaley stuff'. I am sure it will come off when I blast. But, will the surface be even clean enough underneath?

You gents know better than I what is underneath. Plus, it seems there is a 'de-carburized' zone where the carbon content of the surface metal has been oxidized away, that must be removed.

Because it keeps being asked, I will say that you should clean up your blade to 120 grit. Then I will blast at 120 grit.

The last three days have been very educational for me and I have yet to see a knife! Makes me wonder if I won't start making knives myself.

May I toss a question back at ya? Why is heat treat not done with the blade wrapped inside of stainless steel foil? Seems this technique is done at least in some cases.

Scott, I wasn't sure how "powerful" your sand blasting would be.
I'll just finish it up with a some Scotch Brite belts. That will leave it with a much finer than 120 grit satin finish.
About the foil, that works great for air-hardening (air-quenched /plate-quenched) steels.
It doesn't work so well for oil-hardening steels.

- Mitch

 

[Troop]

Scott, If I were using a stainless steel, using foil, I wouldn't need the Cerakote, right?

 

[shotgunner]

OK gentleman! Thanks for the input. I am clearly learning the knife world. I am aware the beauty of my product is the rust inhibiting properties when applied to non stainless steels.

I truly appreciate that you haven't chewed me up and spit me out. Had I done what I am doing now, in my old business, I would be looking for another career already! Thanks for being gentlemen.

I assure you I know how to apply the Cerakote. In the essence of illustration and communication I have two images. Lucky for me my Macro lens came back from Canon today. I grabbed it and took two quickies for your eyes to see.

#1) This first pic shows the detail in the in the engraving on my Benelli M2. The picture is of the receiver. It is made of aluminum. The detail you see on your monitor is approximately 8-10X life size. The edges of the engraving are sharp after sand blast and three coats of Cerakote. I guess I put this here to show you guys you dont need to worry about me degrading your fine skills. Sharp angles will remain sharp. Your hardened steel is far harder than my aluminum receiver.

#2) is the detail of a blade I did yesterday in a color called 'Titanium Blue'. The knife is a crappy one I bought at the $1 store. I bought ten to have as samples. I removed the scales, sandblasted and coated as normal. This crappy metal (I hesitate to call it steel) stood up to the sand blast. Also it illustrates the need for a clean blade as the sanded "edge" clearly shows the serrations from the sanding. You do need to clean up your blades so this does not bleed thru.

Sorry for the poor depth of field. I took this handheld and ambient. I wanted the image fast!

I hope this is useful.

 

[Atlas Knife Company]

What kind of price per blade? I've got a fillet knife that I was going to gunkote, but would love to try your product.

 

[Troop]

What kind of price per blade? I've got a fillet knife that I was going to gunkote, but would love to try your product.

$ 15 bucks per blade in a single color.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=776592

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

Up to now this has been an information and Q&A thread. Now it is a selling thread. It would be best to make any future pricing requests and quotes to be sent by email. A thread in the "For Sale" forum would be a good idea,too.

 

[Sean Cochran]

Scott, I hope Im not hijacking but I realize since you are not a knife maker maybe some of the questions are a little hard for you to answser. I have been using cerakote for a couple of years now on knives.
I think maybe some of the makers arent realizing that the blasting you do is more of a surface prep than a finish. It really is a light blasting, just enough to give the coating something to bite into. It is similar roughing up the tang and scales for epoxy.

What I always do is finish my blade just as I normally would, except I stop at a 400 grit.
It has been my expirence that the better the finish under the coating the better the coating will come out. Yes the surface is blasted before the coating is applied but it is not aggresive enough to ruin the finish. I have tried a couple that I left at 120 and they didnt turn out as well. Nick you are right on about makeing a light pass and not washing out the plunges. Like Scott said the coating is only 1 mil thick, so it wont cover up any imperfections. So Troop, your answer is yes, if you leave it with the scale then all decarb and imperfections will more than likely show.
I have a utility that is 1084 and cerakoted. I have abused it for two years. I work in the oil fields so it see alot of action there. I also have used it around fresh and salt water while fishing. It has held up very well, I highly reccomend it.
BTW IMHO the price that Scott is charging is a bargain.
I hope this helps.

Sean

 

[shotgunner]

What kind of price per blade? I've got a fillet knife that I was going to gunkote, but would love to try your product.

Thanks for your interest. This message is for everybody and not aimed at you zaph.

Please direct all pricing inquiries directly to me, either by my telephone (in siggy below) or PM me. This thread is informational in an informational arena. Let's keep this thread clean. I am new to bladeforums and my desire is to play by the rules.

Thanks for that.

 

[shotgunner]

Scott, I hope Im not hijacking but I realize since you are not a knife maker maybe some of the questions are a little hard for you to answser. I have been using cerakote for a couple of years now on knives.

Thanks Sean. No. I appreciate your experience. I am humble about not knowing anything about knifemaking. Four days ago I had no clue about surface prep. I have learned alot!

As an aside I got myself copy of Barney/Loveless How to make Knives so I can begin to learn what it is you guys do. But, he11, I don't need another hobby!

I think maybe some of the makers arent realizing that the blasting you do is more of a surface prep than a finish. It really is a light blasting, just enough to give the coating something to bite into. It is similar roughing up the tang and scales for epoxy.

I hope my images from yesterday help illustrate this.

What I always do is finish my blade just as I normally would, except I stop at a 400 grit. It has been my expirence that the better the finish under the coating the better the coating will come out. Yes the surface is blasted before the coating is applied but it is not aggresive enough to ruin the finish. I have tried a couple that I left at 120 and they didnt turn out as well. Nick you are right on about makeing a light pass and not washing out the plunges. Like Scott said the coating is only 1 mil thick, so it wont cover up any imperfections. So Troop, your answer is yes, if you leave it with the scale then all decarb and imperfections will more than likely show.
I have a utility that is 1084 and cerakoted. I have abused it for two years. I work in the oil fields so it see alot of action there. I also have used it around fresh and salt water while fishing. It has held up very well, I highly reccomend it.
BTW IMHO the price that Scott is charging is a bargain.
I hope this helps.

Sean

Thanks Again Sean. You are kind to help out.