Cheap Folding Knives =? Crappy Detents

[gadgetgeek]

A crappy detent is a detent that does not serve to retain the blade in the handle adequately. A weak detent makes for a soft flipper, while a strong detent makes for a hard snappy flipper.

If I'm reading that right, Crappy has nothing to do with how strong the detent is, its on a continuum. If your detent is so strong that you have the blade slamming open, shock-loading everything, and sticking the lock, then is probably just as bad as one so soft as to allow the blade to swing open easily.

The detent is only one aspect of the entire knife, and just saying that its only measure of function is if the knife pops open seems limiting to me. The detent could be just fine, but maybe the flipper tab isn't long enough to get enough rotation into the blade, maybe the bearing surfaces inside the pivot provide too much drag, maybe the overall design of the knife does't let the user's finger apply enough force quickly enough. Its not like a rifle trigger where is just a squeeze and break. I mean you could set up a flipper that way, so you are just converting your finger into a spring to assist the opening, or it could be that your finger acts in a more kinetic manner. The point is, just saying good or bad is subjective, and overall not very helpful, because it doesn't actually describe the function of the knife in a way that translates to anyone else.

Would that be a fair assessment?

 

[115Italian]

If I'm reading that right, Crappy has nothing to do with how strong the detent is, its on a continuum. If your detent is so strong that you have the blade slamming open, shock-loading everything, and sticking the lock, then is probably just as bad as one so soft as to allow the blade to swing open easily.

The detent is only one aspect of the entire knife, and just saying that its only measure of function is if the knife pops open seems limiting to me. The detent could be just fine, but maybe the flipper tab isn't long enough to get enough rotation into the blade, maybe the bearing surfaces inside the pivot provide too much drag, maybe the overall design of the knife does't let the user's finger apply enough force quickly enough. Its not like a rifle trigger where is just a squeeze and break. I mean you could set up a flipper that way, so you are just converting your finger into a spring to assist the opening, or it could be that your finger acts in a more kinetic manner. The point is, just saying good or bad is subjective, and overall not very helpful, because it doesn't actually describe the function of the knife in a way that translates to anyone else.

Would that be a fair assessment?

You’re correct. I was more replying to the OP. His definition of a crappy detent means a crappy knife because it doesn’t flip well. I was giving only one example. Yes, flipping capabilities are not solely dependent on the detent. Thanks for explaining that. I should have stated I was giving one example.

 

[marcinek]

GadgetGeek, I'd have to think more on it, but you might be right in saying that I should more precisely formulate my questions. Nevertheless, when someone repeatedly complains about my using or not using my knives for cutting when I am clearly asking a question about action, that person has not misunderstood me due to any vagueness on my part; they just have a chip on their shoulder and need to be blocked.

I understand your problem, and my claim, that you seem to not, or not want to, follow is that since you do not seem to use knives for their intended purpose, you don't understand their intended functionality.

Let's put it this way....say you wanted to use your knives for something they aren't designed for...let's say as frying pans. That's fine, and lets say when you try to make a sunny side up egg on them, the eggs stick.

But then you cannot call the knife "crappy" based on that.

 

[Sharperthansticks]

Part of me thinks we've beat this horse well beyond dead, so I guess the other part of me is a masochist, since I'm replying again, this time with more info.

The flipper tab is minimal. Those in the Nick Shabazz camp might cheer for this, since that also means there's no "pocket pecker" to peck your hand when you reach into your pocket, but it also means that (a) there's a small moment arm to apply torque to the flipper tab to launch the blade, and (b) it's hard to get your finger fully on the tab, both of which limit force production (well, technically torque) on the tab, yielding a slow flipping action that does not always result in blade lockout. Some may find this satisfactory (which I find surprising); I prefer a snappy flipper that locks with authority every time.

I am a male, and my hand strength is average to moderately above average for my sex. My female friend has a grip strength significantly less than mine. Neither of us could consistently get my Vanguard Gemini to lock out until I increased lock bar tension on it, which is at least one data point indicating that two fairly different strengths had similar results on the same knife.

The scope of my comments is restricted to flipping action. I have not commented on cutting, edge retention, resistance to chipping, ease of sharpening, weight, ergos, or attractiveness. While legitimate aspects of any knife, these are not the topics of this thread.

 

[lieferung]

Specifics are good. I want to say generally that flipping action correlates with price. However as I mentioned before my Southard (~$150+) had poor action, and now that you mention flipper tabs I will say my Boker Kwaiken Mini (~$100) was unsatisfactory as well. The tab is small and angled badly for a good finger snag, and it takes more force than I'd like for it to open, the detent almost feels muffled compared to my ZT.

Conversely, I have a $20 cheapie Kershaw Link that had the Speedsafe removed so it just runs on washers, and it flips beautifully. If it weren't so bulky and smooth handled it would be a common EDC for me.

 

[Sharperthansticks]

Specifics are good. I want to say generally that flipping action correlates with price. However as I mentioned before my Southard (~$150+) had poor action, and now that you mention flipper tabs I will say my Boker Kwaiken Mini (~$100) was unsatisfactory as well. The tab is small and angled badly for a good finger snag, and it takes more force than I'd like for it to open, the detent almost feels muffled compared to my ZT.

Conversely, I have a $20 cheapie Kershaw Link that had the Speedsafe removed so it just runs on washers, and it flips beautifully. If it weren't so bulky and smooth handled it would be a common EDC for me.

I have been considering getting a Boker Kwaiken Mini, so that's good to know. I have two Kershaws with Speedsafe assist: a Cryo and a Dividend (the latter in M390, through an auction). The Speedsafe always strikes me as robbing from Peter to pay Paul, since the opening action is great, at the expense of an ugly closing action. Didn't realize it was possible to convert an assisted flipper to an unassisted flipper. How easy is it to do that?

 

[marcinek]

I am a male, and my hand strength is average to moderately above average for my sex. My female friend has a grip strength significantly less than mine. Neither of us could consistently get my Vanguard Gemini to lock out until I increased lock bar tension on it, which is at least one data point indicating that two fairly different strengths had similar results on the same knife.

Maybe you needed to try someone even weaker?

I'm not following.

 

[lieferung]

I have been considering getting a Boker Kwaiken Mini, so that's good to know. I have two Kershaws with Speedsafe assist: a Cryo and a Dividend (the latter in M390, through an auction). The Speedsafe always strikes me as robbing from Peter to pay Paul, since the opening action is great, at the expense of an ugly closing action. Didn't realize it was possible to convert an assisted flipper to an unassisted flipper. How easy is it to do that?

There's tutorials on YouTube, and probably even here. I think all they do is remove the spring. I bought my Link with the spring/tension bar already gone, and while I was disappointed that it didn't fly open, I've come to enjoy the smooth action along with nice easy closing. A buddy of mine recently bought a Blur, and I can feel the huge difference.

 

[benchwarmer380]

Technique can make a world of difference.

I have no issues with the detent on my Kershaw Skyline. Strong enough to hold the blade in and light enough to flip or thumb flick with ease. If I flip it the correct way it flies out every times. If I do it a different way it can come out lackluster. Same detent, different technique which took just a little bit of practice to get used to.

 

[craytab]

Didn't realize it was possible to convert an assisted flipper to an unassisted flipper. How easy is it to do that?

It is possible but only effectively if there is a closing detent hole. Most assisted knives don't have one, rather relying on the spring tension to hold the knife blade in the handle. Without that spring tension and closing detent hole, the blade is able to flop out easily.

 

[Lapedog]

Part of me thinks we've beat this horse well beyond dead, so I guess the other part of me is a masochist, since I'm replying again, this time with more info.

The flipper tab is minimal. Those in the Nick Shabazz camp might cheer for this, since that also means there's no "pocket pecker" to peck your hand when you reach into your pocket, but it also means that (a) there's a small moment arm to apply torque to the flipper tab to launch the blade, and (b) it's hard to get your finger fully on the tab, both of which limit force production (well, technically torque) on the tab, yielding a slow flipping action that does not always result in blade lockout. Some may find this satisfactory (which I find surprising); I prefer a snappy flipper that locks with authority every time.

I am a male, and my hand strength is average to moderately above average for my sex. My female friend has a grip strength significantly less than mine. Neither of us could consistently get my Vanguard Gemini to lock out until I increased lock bar tension on it, which is at least one data point indicating that two fairly different strengths had similar results on the same knife.

The scope of my comments is restricted to flipping action. I have not commented on cutting, edge retention, resistance to chipping, ease of sharpening, weight, ergos, or attractiveness. While legitimate aspects of any knife, these are not the topics of this thread.

I have been considering getting a Boker Kwaiken Mini, so that's good to know. I have two Kershaws with Speedsafe assist: a Cryo and a Dividend (the latter in M390, through an auction). The Speedsafe always strikes me as robbing from Peter to pay Paul, since the opening action is great, at the expense of an ugly closing action. Didn't realize it was possible to convert an assisted flipper to an unassisted flipper. How easy is it to do that?

So, did you ever get around to adjusting the pivot, or even disassembling the knife, cleaning it, and lubing it?

 

[Sharperthansticks]

So, did you ever get around to adjusting the pivot, or even disassembling the knife, cleaning it, and lubing it?

I'm afraid to reply, since it will probably start a whole new flurry of comments, but the answer is no, for these reasons, in order of least important to most important:
1. I didn't have time.
2. There's always a non-negligible chance I'll strip out a screw head; or a screw, spacer, or non-captive bearing (IKBS, anyone?) will take a journey to the other side of the room, in search of freedom.
3. The knife is new. I don't feel like I should have to "fix" a new knife. If it's dirty or dry by the pivot, that's poor quality control. If I really thought the action was so poor it was a dealbreaker, I'd just exchange it for a new one on Amazon, but it's good enough. The next time I am curious enough, I'll take out my Wiha set and see if I can make the action snappier, like I did with the Vanguard Gemini.

This knife is a little different than I've seen so far, with a steel frame and 14C28N blade. (Most of what i own is VG-10 or S30V or S35VN.) For $30, I think it's rather nice. Maybe I'll try the carrot test one of these days, though I think my daily test of cutting up an apple at work is pretty good, too, since my Benchmade Anthem was struggling against a Granny Smith a little while ago.

 

[Lapedog]

I'm afraid to reply, since it will probably start a whole new flurry of comments, but the answer is no, for these reasons, in order of least important to most important:
1. I didn't have time.
2. There's always a non-negligible chance I'll strip out a screw head; or a screw, spacer, or non-captive bearing (IKBS, anyone?) will take a journey to the other side of the room, in search of freedom.
3. The knife is new. I don't feel like I should have to "fix" a new knife. If it's dirty or dry by the pivot, that's poor quality control. If I really thought the action was so poor it was a dealbreaker, I'd just exchange it for a new one on Amazon, but it's good enough. The next time I am curious enough, I'll take out my Wiha set and see if I can make the action snappier, like I did with the Vanguard Gemini.

This knife is a little different than I've seen so far, with a steel frame and 14C28N blade. (Most of what i own is VG-10 or S30V or S35VN.) For $30, I think it's rather nice. Maybe I'll try the carrot test one of these days, though I think my daily test of cutting up an apple at work is pretty good, too, since my Benchmade Anthem was struggling against a Granny Smith a little while ago.

Before you take it alart check for voiding warranty.

Use a magnet to hold onto loose screws. The Kizer uses captive bearings set into a washer.

If you haven't cleaned out the knife then you can't really complain about the performance. My friend has this knife and it flies after a little cleaning. Watch disassembly videos on youtube of this knife and be gentle.

Part of owning some of these cheaper knives is a little bit of TLC.

 

[craytab]

I'm afraid to reply, since it will probably start a whole new flurry of comments, but the answer is no, for these reasons, in order of least important to most important:
1. I didn't have time.
2. There's always a non-negligible chance I'll strip out a screw head; or a screw, spacer, or non-captive bearing (IKBS, anyone?) will take a journey to the other side of the room, in search of freedom.
3. The knife is new. I don't feel like I should have to "fix" a new knife. If it's dirty or dry by the pivot, that's poor quality control. If I really thought the action was so poor it was a dealbreaker, I'd just exchange it for a new one on Amazon, but it's good enough. The next time I am curious enough, I'll take out my Wiha set and see if I can make the action snappier, like I did with the Vanguard Gemini.

This knife is a little different than I've seen so far, with a steel frame and 14C28N blade. (Most of what i own is VG-10 or S30V or S35VN.) For $30, I think it's rather nice. Maybe I'll try the carrot test one of these days, though I think my daily test of cutting up an apple at work is pretty good, too, since my Benchmade Anthem was struggling against a Granny Smith a little while ago.

Yes, more comments with good reason. We see this a lot and recently there was a big thread on it. Not exactly the same but the logic is similar.

So there is enough of a problem to start a thread but not enough of a problem to do anything about it? I guess I don't get that.

 

[Sharperthansticks]

The point of the thread was to find out if there is a correlation between cheap knives and the detent being either too strong or too weak. I already know how to solve the problem: disassemble and bend the lock bar. (Previous posts make this clear.)

The knife in question is a Ruike. I already fixed the Kizer (by bending the lock bar). (Previous posts make this clear.)

What?? Why am I calling these fine knives "cheap," when they perform well? (Previous posts make this clear.)

"But you should be cut---" Nope. (Previous posts make this clear.

The magnet is a good idea; I usually use a magnetic bowl that you can get at a hardware store, and I put all the pieces in it. Stuff still has a tendency to fly before it makes it into the bowl, though. (I might look into getting a bigger bowl.)

Might bow out at this point from this thread. The conversation has matured to the point where we've begun the rehash. Have fun, fellow knife knuts.

 

[Larry Jackson]

Marcinek still misses the point. The detent on both knives are bad. The knives are cheap in that they don't cost a lot of money. Talking about whether or not I should use them more is immaterial to how well the detent is set up. The topic is the detent--deploying the knife, not using it.

And people shouldn't take offense when I say that these knives are cheap, because they literally are; they do not cost a lot of money. A banana is cheap, too, but that doesn't make it bad.

People are getting distracted about my question as to whether or not there's a correlation between poor detents and the selling prices of knives. You'd think they personally manufactured what I'm talking about.

I'd like to know how to soften a detent not "cheap, crappy, or how to use it". That said, how do you soften a detent. Let's encourage question, not belittle folks on how the question is put.

 

[Larry Jackson]

Fine. You meant "inexpensive."

And I get that you find the detent poor for sitting on the couch flipping.

If you knocked off the edge with a cinder block it would be a great edge for sitting on the couch flipping.

See the point?

But again, in a similar vein to your slicers thread earlier, more expensive knives may be better built than less expensive knives. Like good slicers are better slicers than bad slicers.

That is all for actual use, not couch flipping.

So far I've seen no help with adjusting the detent.

 

[gadgetgeek]

So far I've seen no help with adjusting the detent.

You'll want to search around in the Maintenance and Tinkering subforum for more help with this. Its been covered over there a lot more, and bringing up an old thread won't really give you the attention that you need.
If you don't find what you are looking for over there, then start a new thread asking about the specific knives and what you want to adjust, as well as what you have available, skill and tool wise. Its more likely you will get help with what you need over there. Hope that helps!

 

[bobobama]

Cheap and inexpensive are two different things. I have some inexpensive ($8-12) knives that are pretty decent quality. I bought another knife for around $30 that was so poorly made I tossed it in the trash.

I've been shamed before for confusing the two myself. As you say, "cheap" is generally taken to mean poor quality, while "inexpensive" means just that- it doesn't cost much. A cheap knife is a cheap knife, no matter what it costs. On the other hand, an inexpensive knife can be very high quality, price notwithstanding.

 

[Comeuppance]

Detents are highly variable, even when you get into higher price ranges - Spyderco, ZT, Kizer, WE, etc.

I’ve experienced variable detent strength in brands all over the price spectrum. Also, what makes a “good” detent is highly subjective as long as the detent holds the blade in place when closed and allows the blade to come out when opening. The amount of resistance is a matter of taste and practical considerations.