Cheap, good quality frame-lock...

You can see folks all the time walking around with fake designer tee shirts, like ones that say, "Chanel" or "Tommy Hilfiger" and they LOOK LIKE CHEAP KNOCK-OFFS. So, maybe they saved a few bucks in getting them and the people responsible for the original design aren't getting their due dollars.

I don't like this one bit.

But the folks sporting the illicit duds LOOK LIKE ILLICIT DUDS. Ye get what ye pay for.

I like reaching into my pocket and pulling out the genuine article. I work hard to pay for the genuine article. There's that other type of folk who don't mind reaching into their pocket and pulling out a POS!
 
Just for the record, my original post was honest and well-meaning, even if some people don't agree with it. Those slanderous remarks were completely out of line.

I thought this forum was supposed to be a relaxed and friendly place for knife discussion. It seems to me like there was a group of people lying in ambush, just waiting for someone to say something that offended their sensibilities, so they could pounce on them.
 
Actually, the people here are pretty easy going. But when somebody posts, and praises a knife made by a company that is stealing money out of the hands of a fellow forumite, we get riled rather easily. Stealing is stealing. To bring positive attention to such an act, as has been done to Darrel Ralph and Outdoor Edge, is wrong from the beginning. Whether the knife is any good or not is irrelevant. It still should not have been manufactured, sold, purchased, and certainly not praised in a public forum. To do so only encourages others to take part in the ripping off of some very good people.

Do the right thing. Destroy the knife, buy the real deal, and write a letter to the website where you bought it. Mention your displeasure with their act of breaking the law, and ask them to carry the Outdoor Edge instead.
 
I agree with Buzzbait.

You are probably a well meaning and nice individual. As you can now see, there is a very low tolerance level for knock-offs here.
Darrel Ralph is a hard working and well respected member of this knife community. He is an extraordinary talent in the world of custom knifemaking. His designs are unique, well thought out and very user friendly. You saw this even on a knock-off of Darrel's design.
When we see a design that is obviously a near identical rip-off of Darrel's well known design, we know that is either directly or indirectly taking money from his pocket and the people who work for Outdoor Edge. Knock-offs are tantamount to robbery for many here. Of course, decent people don't rob one another. We see the unknown knock-off artist's who hide behind no address company names like "Maple" as thieves. It's wrong to knock-off a maker's designs without even asking if it's alright. It's just plain wrong.

As for you Faxanadu, I for one hope you will continue to post on these forums. You, like most here, have something positive to contribute. Your willingness to share your experiences with a new knife will be welcome. I think you'll find most everyone here to be of a "forgive and forget" nature.

All the Best,
Mike U.
 
faxanadu: Sure, it might be nice, it might be made of some half decent steel, but I've been around in this world long enough to know that I get what I paid for.
I bought a $150CDN dollar CD player that took multiple slammings (yes you read it right. I slammed it against a table at least once) and it's still working fine. I know a friend of mine bought some junk at walmart for $50CDN and it virtually fell apart within a year.
Sure, we always imitated ideas as humans, but there are rules to be followed, and the rules says that they should get a licence. I have a CRKT Crawford/Kasper folder. Is it a knock-off? you can say that, but CRKT had the licence with the custom designers to manufacture them, so it the M16, and so is many of their line-up. And I can tell you, something from CRKT that sometimes costs like $5-10US more would do a heck much better job than that unauthorized knock off. How do I know? I've tried enough unauthorized knock offs to know that they're not going to put the effort to have them quality built. If they're not willing to get licence/permission from the original, what makes you think that they'll actually put some quality to it? Also, The problem that we're having is nothing about the quality of the knock-off, but whether the knock-off is an authorized/permitted one. I don't care whether the CRKT M16 is inferior than Kit Carson's original M16 (it probably is slightly inferior, after all the parts are different), but I will have a problem if CRKT didn't got some sort of permission/authorization/license from Mr. Carson.
I'm not going to ask you to destroy it or dump it or anything like that. But I'll ask you to use that thing hard and see how long it'll hold up. Even if it locks up fine, I'm sure the knife isn't done right (in any combination of poor heat-treat, bad steel, improper grinding, etc.)
I've seen enough cheap folders (and tested them) to know that I'll never trust my fingers to them.
As to whether this place is friendly or not, we're friendly as long as we don't see unauthorized knock-offs like that, or else you'll just see a long flame post like this. Guaranteed, every single time. You'll be surprised to find many big name custom makers here, like Darrel Ralph (sp) (who designed the original that this knock-off ripped from without permission), Kit Carson (plenty of Jaugar knives are knock offs from him) and plenty more. If you're the guy who designed it and then some a-hole makes copies of it, won't you be pissed?
This is completely different from the computing Open Source movement. The Open Source programmers have stated with their license that anyone can use, sell and even modify their product, as long as any modification is made known by to the world.
Is commercialism sad? Yeah. But laws are still laws and you could just throw it aside because this company makes a slightly higher-quality rip-off.
End Rant. Oh and thanks a lot for stirring up the pot. Should've known better that a rip like that (with is appearance slightly modified) would cause a flame post anyways.
 
fax,

"These imitators didn't steal Darrel Ralph's design. Actually it's not even an exact copy. There are easily noticable differences."

#1 - gimme a break. It's certainly not an original design.
#2 - you contradict your earlier comments, which was:
"It appears to be an almost exact copy of the Outdoor Edge Paragee"

"The only difference is, that back in the old days they didn't have the commercialism we have today. And the legal formality of licensing didn't exist.

The only problem with the imitations is that the original designer isn't making money from them. Like I said, it's commercialism."

Your comments seem to indicate a ideology that opposes the profit making motive that drives creativity and originality. Otherwise known as "capitalism". "Legal formality" of licensing?!? The problem with the original designer not making money is not "commercialism", which you dismiss as crass and beneath you, no doubt. The problem is theft of intellectual capital, market research, and R&D investment. Again, AKA "capitalism". Are you a communist, sir? Do you believe that there is no such thing as private property and personal ownership of assets and capital?

"For $9.75 + shipping, it's a steal."
You got that right - a steal it certainly is! Just ask Darrel Ralph.

Someone else mentioned that "I think you'll find most everyone here to be of a "forgive and forget" nature." I would agree, but since you have not retracted your bible remark, I am witholding both my forgiveness and forgetfulness, and in my mind your are still a troll - trolling for a religious argument instead of a knife argument.

Some of the people I most respect around here are pagans (their name, not mine), but they are respectful enough to not take a broadside at the many people here who claimm adherence to a faith based in, yes, the Bible. If you are a pagan, or an atheist, or anything for that matter, you would do welll to follow their example.
 
Im going to abstain on some of my opinions of that site and its designs. However I can say, some people dont have the money to spend on "designer" knives...and its a shame...sometimes they want knife then something to call their own that still looks good. If it means buying a 7-10 dollar so be it. Until I read what a "troll" was, I had no opinion of this matter...now it looks as though you may be right. I cant say either way, im new to knives and this forum, some of you have seen things I haven't, so Im going to stay out of this.
 
Well many had testified in the forums before that they got a great deal in places for CRKT Mirage for like $10US. It's not terribly much difference from what that was selling for, and don't forget, it didn't make an unauthorized copy of other people's work and it's still a decent knife for people who won't pay a lot of cash for high end knives.
There are plenty of cheap productions that don't rip designers off, have excellent quality, and don't exactly cost an arm or a leg.
 
For those of you who made polite and thoughtful responses to my posts, I understand and respect your positions, although I might not necessarily agree with all of them.

To Darrel Ralph: Don't take anything the wrong way. I'm wasn't trying to undermine your reputation. I own a Camillus EDC, and I think it's an excellent knife. It's definitely one of the best designs around.

Anyways, it's been an interesting discussion. If I got a little rude, I was just being defensive.
No hard feelings.
 
Faxanadu--

WELCOME TO BLADEFORUMS!!!! :D

To tell you the truth, I would probably be ordering that knife you got if it weren't a "knock-off." I like cheap stuff, too! Just not copies, unless I am buying one for the expressed purpose of "comparison" to "teach" others.

Now to come clean: I have one of those "Eagle" knives about the size of a Delica. I got it free with an order from Brigade Q. a few years ago, before I even joined this site.

I also have a S&W "Cuttin Horse" folder. It was a gift and I hope she didn't pay more than 50 cents for it! :)

Another gift is a little bitty lockback shaped like a rat, bought by a friend in Mexico 'cause he was thinking of me when he saw it.

Nothing wrong with POS or "junk" knives if they serve a "purpose" in your collection and you don't buy them when you know they're a knock-off. And if you've bought a bunch of the "real thing" and one day decide to buy a "knock-off" for comparison purposes, I don't see anything wrong with that, especially if you get it second hand.

But in general, I don't like helping out the crooks who make the knock-offs. There's a difference between an honest "cheapo" and a plain old rip-off.

Karl
 
Well, I too, am too new to this forum and the Knife world at large, although I have loved knives since I was a boy. I am in my forties and have been around the block a few times.:D I had no idea how the knife world has changed since my younger days, and certainly those of my father. I remember my dad having a pocket knife all his life...in fact there was not a gentleman around that did not have a pocket knife of sorts.

How the world has changed.....and change, in a way, is a good thing. Firstly, the types of steels that we get today ( and I used to work for a steel works many years ago), is mind bogling. In the old days you got stainless, stainless and non-stainless steel ....LOL. There was a quench and tempering process, and so forth.

As technology advances, we find things move ever faster and buying habits change. There is always a market for everything....right or wrong. As long as there is a need, there will be someone to fulfill that need.

I am sorry to see the animosity here...I do not know what the term "TROLL" means in this context, other than the ones in fairy tales:)

If someone has designed something and has patented it and licensed it, then you need to get the originator's permission to produce it....period. That is the law. I had no idea that this is a problem. In South Africa, the knife community is too small...we don't even have our own forum...so I am happy to have found you wonderful people here. I also love America.....and everything American....One day I hope to live in your wonderful country. My sister already does....she is in Tampa Florida....what a lucky girl she is.

Kiss and make up..you have so much to be thankful for.:D :D :D
 
The one person who might possibly be directly effected by these knock offs is conspicuously absent, that being Darrel Ralph himself.

99% of this thread is just people saying basically the same thing over & over & over...good lord, how many times does it need to be repeated?
All I'm saying is, if Darrel Ralph has a problem with it, and I'm fairly sure he is aware of these knives and so is Outdoor Edge, they can handle the problem in whatever way they see fit..just piling on and repeating after each other is pointless.

Further, to call these knives a POS, without any actual evidence, is also pointless.
I'm reminded of a recent thread about S&W knives, where quite a few people, whithout ever having owned one, felt qualified to call them a POS as well...whatever...I guess if you are a true "knife nut" or "cutlery expert", you experience some rare form of prescience in these matters.

I myself would not buy one, but then, I just bought a DDR Apogee. However, I am also quite sure Darrel and Outdoor Edge can speak for themselves, so I don't feel a need to try to do it for them.

That's just my opinion...
 
To clarify, I say it is a POS because it is a ripoff. I am not talking quality. I am talking about stealing a design.

People who steal and people who help them are Pieces of s&#104it!
 
Originally posted by faxanadu
For those of you who made polite and thoughtful responses to my posts, I understand and respect your positions, although I might not necessarily agree with all of them.

To Darrel Ralph: Don't take anything the wrong way. I'm wasn't trying to undermine your reputation. I own a Camillus EDC, and I think it's an excellent knife. It's definitely one of the best designs around.

Anyways, it's been an interesting discussion. If I got a little rude, I was just being defensive.
No hard feelings.
Click to expand...
No hard feelings either.
Just letting you know that most people here don't like unauthorized copies. I'm sure there's plenty other member who posted about something similar and got flamed.
Enjoy your stay here. Although we all got a wrong impression, I think you'll find this place real nice ;)
 
Judging by the pic, I would (and did!) sooner go to WalMart and get a Kershaw Vapor for $19.96. Twice the price for more than twice the knife.
 
Out of curiosity, do you think unauthorized $10 knives really hurt legitmate designers? As an example, I have Rolex SeaDweller. It was expensive. Would someone who was thinking of buying a cheapo Rolex copy in Times Square really be thinking "Hey, I should get the real thing for 4 grand, not this crappy knockoff for 30 bucks!" In other words, I think these knock-off people are just participating in a wholly different segment of the market. Now thats not to say that I endorse or enjoy it when other peoples hard work and designs are copied, I am just saying that I question whether someone shopping at "Family Defense" would really buy or even be in the market for an authentic DDR, if he even knew about it. I can't see someone looking at a $10 knife turning around and saying, you know, I really should spend $500 and get something nicer! I dunno, maybe I'm off base on this one....
 
Well faxandu, welcome to BladeForums. Are you enjoying yourself so far?

You have puchased this knife and found it to be a good knife for the money you spent. You were kind enough to come here and give us a report on this knife. Thank you for that.

There are many people that because of the financial position they find themselves in or the fact that they are just cheap bastards, purchase knives in this price bracket on a regular basis. There is nothing wrong with your reviewing this knife here. The reason that people are reacting the way they are is that they do not like the fact that this knife is a copy.

There have been some that have commented on the fact that because it is cheap it must be a piece of crap. This is not the case at all. Many knives that cost less than $9.95 are very good knives. Opinels are a perfect example of this. No one should make snap judgements on the quality of a knife based on its price. Basing your dislike for a cheap knife that is also a direct copy of someone else's design is in my opinion, valid.

Faxandu, if you are going to post this kind of topic on BF you are going to have to develop a thicker skin. I understand that your comment about the Bible and a herd mentality was in response to all the negative comments directed your way, but it was uncalled for just the same.

Anyway, I hope you stick around.


*Edited to make reading easier.
 
Last time I looked, there was not a knifemaker around reinventing the wheel every time they make a knife. That's what it really comes down to.

I see several makers copying Chris Reeves' frame lock, Michael Walkers' liner lock, Sal Glessers' spyderhole and pocket clip, and the list goes on & on..Same goes for blade configurations, handles, etc..

You want to get all upset over someone copying a design, you should at least be consistent and get upset over every single knife being made today, because it's all been done before, for the most part.
You want to get all upset over companies that sell knock-off's, again, at least be consistent...

And if you want to have any credibility at all, don't talk about sorry heat treatment or poor quality when you obviously have no experience with the knife or knives in question.

Yeah, I don't design or make knives, and I could possibly be wrong...maybe there is a maker or designer out there really reinventing the wheel, even as I type this, but they would most certainly be the exception, and not the rule, and there is nothing wrong with that at all.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top