Cheapskate Heroes

[Chronovore]

Their official site says they are using ''martensitic stainless steel''. I don't know why they don't just write the number of steel they use; it would be simpler with less typing.
Anyhow; I looked through the net and some other sources are mentioning 1.4110 steel, as you wrote.
I sharpen my fathers SAKs but nothing much else so I can't say much about this steel. Looks like our 'SAK using' friends from this forum love the steel. They say it's a good compromise between edge holding and edge maintenance.

But; as I see they used 14c28n for their Venture collection.
Makes you think.

It's the dreaded "stainless steel" or "surgical stainless" issue. If a company doesn't specify their steel, there's a good chance it's either bad or just not very impressive. A good steel is a selling point, so they'll be more apt to specify when it's something good (or at least popular).

I must say I also like D2 steel. Must be somehow related to my work. In 30 years I designed tons of tooling in D2 and spring (1.8159) steel for operations I used to cover. Besides; there is lots of good knives out there in D2 steel at a very good price. If I add to that 12c27 and my last purchase in 14c28n steel all my cutting tasks and edge retention wishes are more or less covered. Besides; I don't mind some edge refreshing or sharpening from time to time.
I can't say I would not like to have a super steel knife. I just can't find the knife I would like at the price I would approve at the moment.
Was looking at Manly City in s90v steel. Good price but unfortunately the black version is unavailable at the moment around here.

I have a bunch of knives in Chinese D2. They are generally decent although the lower corrosion resistance can sometimes be an issue for me, mostly when it's like 90F and 90% humidity in the summer. One issue in the years since D2 became common on Chinese knives has been inconsistent performance. Some speculation regards heat treatment and there have also been questions about purity or consistency in the steel itself, including the vanadium content. Still, the average edge retention is a big step up from 8Cr13Mov (let alone 5Cr).

I've never owned a Manly knife but they have an excellent reputation around the forum here.

 

[TheOne45]

It's the dreaded "stainless steel" or "surgical stainless" issue. If a company doesn't specify their steel, there's a good chance it's either bad or just not very impressive. A good steel is a selling point, so they'll be more apt to specify when it's something good (or at least popular).

Don't forget ''Inox-Germany'' steel. It's made in Germany so it must be premium because Germany is known for quality and good technology, right?
Anyway; I wonder how much it matters; most people don't know and don't care about the steel anyway.
But if we are honest this ''surgical Victorinox steel'' is not much worse (if at all) as some steel used by well known companies for their knives. As I see, some of those knives are very popular. Must be also some other factors involved … like demografic or nostalgic.

I have a bunch of knives in Chinese D2. They are generally decent although the lower corrosion resistance can sometimes be an issue for me, mostly when it's like 90F and 90% humidity in the summer. One issue in the years since D2 became common on Chinese knives has been inconsistent performance. Some speculation regards heat treatment and there have also been questions about purity or consistency in the steel itself, including the vanadium content. Still, the average edge retention is a big step up from 8Cr13Mov (let alone 5Cr).

At the moment I only have 2 knives made of D2. One is PF949 which suppose to be Bohler K110. It measures 61HRc and holds the edge very good. I can't confirm if it realy is K110 but I would say they've done a good job. It stil bugs me … do they buy this steel from Bohler or they buy chinese steel made by Bohler prescription.
The other is PF838 in chinese D2 steel. I haven't measured it yet but looks like a solid performer according to my cutting tests.
I don't have much experiences with other chinese companies but looks like PF is doing a decent job with steel end heat treatment.

I've never owned a Manly knife but they have an excellent reputation around the forum here.

Yes; I see only positive reviews here. The reasonable price also helped in my decision to get one. The only problem is availability up here. Manly is a company from Bulgaria and till recently their official store was mostly a mess and not much other stores have them on the shelfs. In Lamnia store (Finland) the black version of Manly City is unavailable more then half a year. Boker store has some but waiting period is about a month but I heard some complaints about this store …. I'm not sure if I want to buy from them.
I'm also not sure yet if I should order the knife from Bulgaria.

 

[oldmanwilly]

@scdub MAM folders are great cheapskate knives and excellent slicers. By coincidence, I have been carrying one of mine today.

View attachment 2519765

My only alteration was to tighten the pivot by lightly peening it a bit more. I did the same with its younger (and much smaller) brother.

View attachment 2519774

This one's nail-nick was so thin it really wasn't functional. So, I took a dremel to it and made it serviceable, if not ugly.

[can't find the darn thing at the moment, pics coming later]

#10
View attachment 2519778

Following up from a previous post, I finally found my MAM Ibericas. This is the one on which I used a dremel to make the nail-nick useable.

Bask in my superior dremel skills:

Doesn't look great, but it works now.

My daughter has already claimed this one, so it won't be mine for long.


#10

 

[Chronovore]

At the moment I only have 2 knives made of D2. One is PF949 which suppose to be Bohler K110. It measures 61HRc and holds the edge very good. I can't confirm if it realy is K110 but I would say they've done a good job. It stil bugs me … do they buy this steel from Bohler or they buy chinese steel made by Bohler prescription.

They seem to be importing Bohler K110 for these. Up front, I suppose name-brand "Bohler K110" sounds premium versus plain ol' D2. On the other hand, companies like Petrified Fish and Bestech do seem to be responding to controversy over spotty performance for Chinese D2. Even if those companies do some of the better blades in Chinese D2, the overall reputation for Chinese D2 has fallen a bit. Overcoming market saturation and fatigue could also be factors.

Of course, it's also an easy solution. They are analagous steels, so a company set up to do D2 should be readily suited for K110. If there is any truth to questions about purity or consistency with the Chinese D2, Bohler K110 might be made to better or cleaner standards. Even if only slightly, it might be a little easier to work with or result in a slightly better final product. In any case, the price tag gets a $20 bump for the upgrade.

 

[Deino]

I was looking for a fixed blade knife for walks in the woods, some work around the house and some ''bushcrafting'' when doing grill on my yard.
After educating myself on Youtube watching all those former special forces survival guys and all those bushcraft experts I got a picture what kind of a knife should looking for.
Apparently my goal suppose to be a full tang knife with a decent steel to cope with all those demanding tasks I was going to put it through ( ). But the knife should also look as I think the knife should look and I didn't want a plain carbon steel.

Well; I got the knife I was looking for but searching the knife I also saw, what's available at what price so that's why I wrote I'm somehow not convinced about their decision to use 5Cr14mov steel.

The BPS should work fine. I don't like plain carbon steel, but I have the a BPS carbon because it wasn't available in stainless to me at the time. Last year, I get another relative cheap knife, a Vangedalkniv Danish scout knife, which uses 1.4116 so equivalent to BPS. The steel works fine outdoor. It is not popular, but there are youtube videos about it.

These budget steels works fine. I have the opportunity to hang out with some Canadian Rangers (army wilderness patrol) and their knives are not much better on paper, the Canadian made Grohmann knives in 1.4110 or C70 (SAE1070). The current SF guys like to get cool stuff because they are SF, not because they can't trust "budget" options.

Also, I have a few Chinese knives that I do like, but I will never comparing to brands from other countries. it is just unfair when some can ignore so many life issues to pull out something for cheap, while others have to follow regulations to manufacture things, and in the case of BPS, they are fighting with their life and still pull out decent product.
(I might get flagged for politic...)

 

[TheOne45]

They seem to be importing Bohler K110 for these. Up front, I suppose name-brand "Bohler K110" sounds premium versus plain ol' D2. On the other hand, companies like Petrified Fish and Bestech do seem to be responding to controversy over spotty performance for Chinese D2. Even if those companies do some of the better blades in Chinese D2, the overall reputation for Chinese D2 has fallen a bit. Overcoming market saturation and fatigue could also be factors.

Of course, it's also an easy solution. They are analagous steels, so a company set up to do D2 should be readily suited for K110. If there is any truth to questions about purity or consistency with the Chinese D2, Bohler K110 might be made to better or cleaner standards. Even if only slightly, it might be a little easier to work with or result in a slightly better final product. In any case, the price tag gets a $20 bump for the upgrade.

I try to first do some research before I buy a knife. I will buy a knife if it gets positive reviews from the sources I think I can trust.
When I get it I can do a visual inspection and check for flaws but I can't be 100% sure about the steel without some lab tests. I won't run to our lab with every knife I get harrasing them to do analyses. All I can do is to measure hardness and do my cutting tests to check, if it performs the way I think it should.
But...
the internet is flooded with all kind of knife 'experts'. Some of them are real experts and some of them complete morons. So it's up to us to make a filter.
The same goes for knife companies.... good and bad companies out there. It's up to us to share our experiences.

 

[TheOne45]

The BPS should work fine. I don't like plain carbon steel, but I have the a BPS carbon because it wasn't available in stainless to me at the time. Last year, I get another relative cheap knife, a Vangedalkniv Danish scout knife, which uses 1.4116 so equivalent to BPS. The steel works fine outdoor. It is not popular, but there are youtube videos about it.

These budget steels works fine. I have the opportunity to hang out with some Canadian Rangers (army wilderness patrol) and their knives are not much better on paper, the Canadian made Grohmann knives in 1.4110 or C70 (SAE1070). The current SF guys like to get cool stuff because they are SF, not because they can't trust "budget" options.

I'm sure we all follow some sort of criterias when buying a knife.
My criterias are the look, the steel and the price.
If I'm not sure about one of those three things I skip the knife and don't bother looking for reviews. I'm not trying to force myself anymore because I learned the hard way this does not work for me.
I hope you understand what I'm trying to say. No matter what, 5cr_mov or Victorinox steel does not make me tick or whatever the expression goes.

Otherwise I have nothing against budget knives. As a matter of fact I do have a very budget Bahco 2446 and I like it a lot. As they say it's made of 12c27 steel and it goes for 10 euros in my local store. As I understand it's somehow related with Mora... like a cheaper version or something. I was looking a Mora video and they were stamping Bahco logo on those orange sheaths. The handle is more ergonomic as on my Mora Companion and it mesures 59HRc compare to 56HRc I measured on my Mora.
To be short, this knife delivers... it's a slicer and it holds the edge admirably for all my cutting tasks.

By the way, how am I suppose to pick a proper 'do it all' knife between all those survival, bushcraft, rescue, hunting, army, self defense knives. Anything else out there I'm not aware of?
I wonder how those people up there could survive, hunt, bushcraft and defend themselves only with those puukko knives.

 

[chevyrulez1]

I just received my two latest thrifty prizes! A Bucklite 422 for under $17, and a CEM 1701 agriculture knife from Italy, for $14 and change both are really nice, and got both of them shipped and tax less than $35

 

[qmether]

 

[SCTorrero]

Not sure if it is been mentioned, but the MBK Old Gaurd and Mini may be some the best value knives for the buck.

 

[SwissHeritageCo]

Not sure if it is been mentioned, but the MBK Old Gaurd and Mini may be some the best value knives for the buck.

It's definitely a lot of knife for the price.

 

[SwissHeritageCo]

I would be remiss for not mentioning the cheapest "cheapskate" hero of them all. Enter the FH922, an inhouse design with a confirmed D2 hitting close to 63hrc. I've used this knife for all manner of mischief and it has served excellently. Rock solid lockup, perfect action, and a pleasure to deploy. In my humble opinion, absolutely unbeatable at $27 for a hard use tool.

 

[TheOne45]

I would be remiss for not mentioning the cheapest "cheapskate" hero of them all. Enter the FH922, an inhouse design with a confirmed D2 hitting close to 63hrc. I've used this knife for all manner of mischief and it has served excellently. Rock solid lockup, perfect action, and a pleasure to deploy. In my humble opinion, absolutely unbeatable at $27 for a hard use tool.

Where did you get it for this price? Arround here it goes for 42 euros and Ganzo store wants $44.

Close to 63HRc? Did you measured it?
Ain't that a little high for D2? As far as my experiences go D2 gets chippy at that hardness.

 

[Chronovore]

Where did you get it for this price? Arround here it goes for 42 euros and Ganzo store wants $44.

Close to 63HRc? Did you measured it?
Ain't that a little high for D2? As far as my experiences go D2 gets chippy at that hardness.

In the world of budget knives in Chinese D2, Ganzo does a reasonable job. Aside from use reports, they've been variously punched for hardness and confirmed by XRF. In cut-testing from a few years ago, when Chinese D2 was first getting big, people were surprised to see Ganzo competing with more expensive or more reputable brands.

For the money, Petrified Fish does better with Chinese D2. Of course, only a couple of PF models dip below $30. At least in the United States, lots of Ganzo's original designs in D2 are available for like $25.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of Chinese D2. There has been a lot of controversy in the years since it went mainstream. Frankly, the edge retention never quite matched the D2 in American or other knives that created the reputation and subsequent demand for that steel. There have been inconsistencies in performance and speculation as to why ranges from issues in heat treatment to variation in the vanadium content. It also tends to fall short of what I'd consider the trade-off in going to a semi-stainless steel. However, it does consistently offer a significantly better edge than 8Cr13Mov and at the $25 level, that's where it shines! (Sure, it's not as tough as 8Cr13Mov but just give it a toothy edge and go to town.)

 

[TheOne45]

In the world of budget knives in Chinese D2, Ganzo does a reasonable job. Aside from use reports, they've been variously punched for hardness and confirmed by XRF. In cut-testing from a few years ago, when Chinese D2 was first getting big, people were surprised to see Ganzo competing with more expensive or more reputable brands.

For the money, Petrified Fish does better with Chinese D2. Of course, only a couple of PF models dip below $30. At least in the United States, lots of Ganzo's original designs in D2 are available for like $25.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of Chinese D2. There has been a lot of controversy in the years since it went mainstream. Frankly, the edge retention never quite matched the D2 in American or other knives that created the reputation and subsequent demand for that steel. There have been inconsistencies in performance and speculation as to why ranges from issues in heat treatment to variation in the vanadium content. It also tends to fall short of what I'd consider the trade-off in going to a semi-stainless steel. However, it does consistently offer a significantly better edge than 8Cr13Mov and at the $25 level, that's where it shines! (Sure, it's not as tough as 8Cr13Mov but just give it a toothy edge and go to town.)

I still use D2 (german 1.2379 or Bohler K110) for some tooling and I usually go up to 60HRc. With higher hardnes tooling can become chippy.
I can't see how your comment about chinese D2 responds to my chipping question.
I can't comment how chinese D2 would perform in our tooling because we don't have it.
Are you trying to say chinese D2 at 63HRc does not chip as german or Bohler D2?

 

[Chronovore]

I still use D2 (german 1.2379 or Bohler K110) for some tooling and I usually go up to 60HRc. With higher hardnes tooling can become chippy.
I can't see how your comment about chinese D2 responds to my chipping question.
I can't comment how chinese D2 would perform in our tooling because we don't have it.
Are you trying to say chinese D2 at 63HRc does not chip as german or Bohler D2?

Not necessarily. Just sharing some general information and opinion. I probably also should have specified that most of the Ganzo D2 I've seen tested has been in the 60-63HRC range.

From my own experiences and what I've heard over the years, Ganzo's D2 isn't any more or less chippy than a lot of other Chinese D2. Taken in context, I see a lot of comments about S30V being chippy at any hardness, M390 from various companies being chippy, etc.. I haven't noticed a problem but that could just be in how I use it. So I guess good questions would be what you plan to do with it and if you'd be better served by a tougher steel.

BTW, some of the other companies primarily using Chinese D2 (including Petrified Fish) have started importing Bohler K110. Some of that might be in response to the controversy mentioned previously. Some might just be for the perception, getting an edge in marketing, or a margin on the markup. However, if K110 is cleaner, then it might be a little easier to work with it or to produce a slightly better blade with the same techniques and they're already set up to process it.

 

[TheOne45]

So I guess good questions would be what you plan to do with it and if you'd be better served by a tougher steel.

Indeed.
I have three Petrified Fish knives. One is K110 at 61HRc (measured in our lab) and it performs very good with no chipping. The other is made of chinese D2 and I can't say nothing bad about it. I still need to measure it's hardness. The third is 12c27.
I would say D2 at 63HRc is pushing the limits for 'do it all' knife.

Taken in context, I see a lot of comments about S30V being chippy at any hardness, M390 from various companies being chippy, etc..

A while ago I did some experiments with push-cutting (peeling) tooling for copper with Bohler K290 at 70HRc. Heat treatment was done in a specialised company and this tooling performed extremely good.... no chipping and very good edge retention at 1/3 of a price compare to K1 grade carbide harrdness.
I would say this s30v and m390 chippnes you mentioned has something to do with not optimal heat treatment.

 

[SwissHeritageCo]

Where did you get it for this price? Arround here it goes for 42 euros and Ganzo store wants $44.

Close to 63HRc? Did you measured it?
Ain't that a little high for D2? As far as my experiences go D2 gets chippy at that hardness.

Amazon (usa). The FH922 is definitely on the harder side of the chinese d2 I've used. I haven't tested it myself but I've seen multiple receipts at 62.5hrc. They have treated an ocean of d2 at this point and I'm sure they have it dialed in pretty good.

I've had some micro chipping with it for sure, but after a few good sharpenings and properly convexing the edge, it went away. Probably overheated the edge a bit at the factory.

All in all for the $27 I spent, I wasn't expecting it to be as good as it is. It's a really solid well built knife. I had a civivi recently and it felt flimsy compared to the FH922. My mbk old guard actually uses the same exact pivot as the FH922 as well.

Chronovore is right about the comparison of chinese d2 to 8Cr13Mov. The d2 is a substantial improvement, I edc'd a tenacious for a long time and 8Cr13Mov would dull like lightning.

Ganzos steel is still weird in that it has all kinds of visible artifacts in it's finish... but for $27 it has been shockingly reliable so far.

 

[TheOne45]

Chronovore is right about the comparison of chinese d2 to 8Cr13Mov. The d2 is a substantial improvement, I edc'd a tenacious for a long time and 8Cr13Mov would dull like lightning.

D2 should be a big step over 8cr13mov steel. As I can see 8cr13mov is actually a chinese copy of AUS-8 steel. If someone is interested .... there is a nice article on KnifeSteelNerds site about those chinese steels. Spyderco is also mentioned with their 440C/8cr14 confusion:
https://knifesteelnerds.com/2024/01/13/testing-chinese-knife-steel-8cr13mov-8cr14mov/

8cr13mov (8cr14mov) is nothing special but a step over a very popular 420, 420J2 and 420HC. 7cr17 steel is the same as 440A. You mentioned your Tenacious .... I could add ... if Spyderco (made by knife enthusiasts) is using 8cr14mov for some of their knives apparently this steel is not so bad.
I could also say my Mora Companion in praised 12c27 steel is nothing special with it's 55.7HRc ''softness'' but sharpened properly it can hold the edge just fine.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/172R1fat18BiajUwAIP_ukhdqgeendVZT/view?usp=drivesdk

 

[Chronovore]

D2 should be a big step over 8cr13mov steel. As I can see 8cr13mov is actually a chinese copy of AUS-8 steel. If someone is interested .... there is a nice article on KnifeSteelNerds site about those chinese steels. Spyderco is also mentioned with their 440C/8cr14 confusion:
https://knifesteelnerds.com/2024/01/13/testing-chinese-knife-steel-8cr13mov-8cr14mov/

8cr13mov (8cr14mov) is nothing special but a step over a very popular 420, 420J2 and 420HC. 7cr17 steel is the same as 440A. You mentioned your Tenacious .... I could add ... if Spyderco (made by knife enthusiasts) is using 8cr14mov for some of their knives apparently this steel is not so bad.
I could also say my Mora Companion in praised 12c27 steel is nothing special with it's 55.7HRc ''softness'' but sharpened properly it can hold the edge just fine.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/172R1fat18BiajUwAIP_ukhdqgeendVZT/view?usp=drivesdk

Yes, 8Cr13Mov is a Chinese analog of AUS-8. While Larrin is correct about it being fairly tough, there is an elephant in the room regarding its edge retention. Sure, it can hold a total edge life close to some better steels like 14C28N. However, the quality of that edge over the course of its life is not the same.

You can get 8Cr13Mov (or AUS-8 for that matter) very sharp with relative ease but it doesn't stay very sharp. That impressive fine edge rapidly degrades to a ho-hum working edge. That's where it lives as it slowly dwindles away. So 8Cr13Mov looks better than it is if we are measuring total edge life. If looking at the quality of the edge over the course its life, 14C28N provides a much better cutting experience over much more of its total edge life. I think this is a big part of why user experience or reputation mismatches Larrin's ratings or why it gets defenders who have different expectations.

I feel like the lesser steels shouldn't even be on the hobbyist's table in 2024. For instance, 7Cr17Mov (analog of 440A) can get close to 8Cr13Mov in edge retention depending on heat treatment but is really only a viable choice if you only have like $20 and need something with more corrosion resistance. 5Cr15Mov (analog of 1.4116, etc.) is pretty much garbage and the companies still using it should be ashamed of themselves. 3Cr13Mov, a steel that is sometimes used to make liners and the bodies of steel frame-locks, is still used to make blades in the bottom-barrel Kershaw offerings, random gas station knives, and the sub-$10 Ozark Trail line from Walmart. There is just no reason to choose stuff like this when you can get knives in 8Cr13Mov for like $15 and upgrades to better stuff are only as far away as the cost of lunch at McDonald's.