Cheness 9260 "Oniyuri" Ko-Katana, Yea or Nay?

[Noctis3880]

I've been looking around for a relatively cheap(less than $300) functional katana as sort of a self birthday present(which is still a ways off).

Since the only ones in my price range that can still cut things are made in China, I have to do a bit of research to separate "Made in China" piece of crap from the very very few things that come out of China that might still be useful on some level.

Paul Chen Hanwei and Cheness were two names that jumped out at me. Cold Steel was also one, but I've heard that they WAY overcharge on their swords(among other things). Someone else had mentioned that Paul Chen swords are somewhat random on their QC, namely on the heat treat where the next sword you buy could end up a lemon.

Cheness seemed to do something new, which is using something other than the standard carbon steel for their swords. The use of spring steel in a sword is very interesting and sounds desirable.

Still, would this one be considered a high quality sword? Or can I find a better one out there?

Also, since I theoretically would want to actually use it, perhaps regularly, is there an argument against standard sharpening methods like a set of paper wheels other than the fugly looking bevel at the edge? I also feel tempted to take it to my buffing wheels, as I could probably put an even smoother finish on the blade, which might save me the trouble of having to oil it, as a mirror finish is said to be protection against corrosion.

 

[Bimmer1]

Cheness claims that their Tenchi series is the strongest (without bo-hi). I own the Tenchi Ko-Katana myself. The Hanwei Raptor series is also supposed to be a good entry level through hardened katana.

 

[Hesparus]

I'm a little bit confused as to what you want. You mention the cheness oniyuri in your heading, which is a specialized ko katana. If it is this specific sword design that you want, then your only two options are the cheness oniyuri or a custom. If it's any ko katana, then you can eliminate paul chen blades (fwiw, I've heard they've solved their QC problems) because they don't make a ko katana. If it's a relatively traditional ko katana that you want, you can eliminate cold steel as well, because their japanese style blades only superficially resemble real japanese blades (they're way too thick and heavy, for example). If it's any katana that you want, all three of the companies you mention will give you a good sword. Consider what you will be doing with the sword, and decide which sword made by any of the three companies fits your bill. And if what you want is a blade for under $300, then look somewhere besides cold steel. If you could go into what you want in a little more detail, we could help you out a bit better.

- Chris

p.s. As far as the 5160/9260 steel (basically identical in terms of performance) that is used in some cheness swords and in the hanwei raptor series goes, it's hard to do better. Many sword (and knife) makers consider this to be the best steel for the job as it is extremely durable and holds a very good edge.

 

[Noctis3880]

Sorry about the confusion.

What I'm actually looking for would be a light one-handed japanese sword, but with the ability to use it two-handed for more force and control in the swing. So I figured a long tsuba, short blade ko-katana would fit the bill nicely.

Intended use would be light to medium cutting to "impress the friends". The most severe use would probably be lopping off a few small branches.

Since it'll be a user sword, something like an overly long machete, I do plan to sharpen and/or polish the blade myself with my bench grinder.

I'm tempted by the use of "modern" spring and tool steels, but it might be unnecessary unless I plan to cut down trees with it. I'm thinking a differentially hardened blade with at least 1060 steel would do fine.

The problem is mostly with the handle. Some makers are reported to use CHOPSTICKS as shimming to fill the gap where the resulting gap in the handle doesn't hold the blade tightly. Others are said to have substandard wood for their handle, which often results in cracking.

One case involving a Cheness Higo ended up with the blade popping clean out of the handle and stabbing someone in the chest:
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=79231

You'd think with modern day materials someone could afford a handle with sturdy materials.

This post might be better suited for SFI, but it'll probably be another few days before my account is activated there, so what the hey.

After some careful thought(which is hard for us impulse buyers), I figure the Oniyuri is just some Hollywood replica that a real ninja would never be caught dead with.

Dynasty Forge came up as one maker better than Cheness and to some, even better than Hanwei. However, the only Ko-Katana they make is in mono-tempered 1060 steel at Rc 52-53 from spine to edge, which kind of makes edge retention a failure(but then, so is the Oniyuri I suppose). I guess I might not have much of a choice other than to go with a full-size.

 

[Bimmer1]

I believe that Cheness Higo story was from a few years ago and Cheness stepped up their quality after that incident and went with full tang construction. Dynasty forge is well respected. For your price range you will have to compromise somewhere. A through hardened /mono tempered blade is really the way to go for a beginner or if you want a more durable sword for cutting purposes (especially if you cuts are not perfect). A through hardened sword is also cheaper to purchase. You may give up the hamon but I say "So what?" in this case. Also, a katana without a bo-hi is typically more durable than one with a bo-hi.

 

[Noctis3880]

I believe that Cheness Higo story was from a few years ago and Cheness stepped up their quality after that incident and went with full tang construction. Dynasty forge is well respected. For your price range you will have to compromise somewhere. A through hardened /mono tempered blade is really the way to go for a beginner or if you want a more durable sword for cutting purposes (especially if you cuts are not perfect). A through hardened sword is also cheaper to purchase. You may give up the hamon but I say "So what?" in this case. Also, a katana without a bo-hi is typically more durable than one with a bo-hi.

One person brought up that unless I'm an idiot trying to hack through a tree, the super toughness of a spring steel isn't necessary.

Given that what I'm looking for is essentially a lightweight wakizashi with an extended tsuba, I might lean towards a bo-hi for less weight. I just don't want the blade to break while lopping off a small tree branch or something.

The Dynasty Forge 1060 Ko-Katana with Bo-Hi seems like it'll fit the bill. It doesn't sound very good at edge holding with an Rc of around 55(from what I heard), but the only review of the Musha class series I could find showed several cuts made through filled water bottles and a tatami mat, so I suppose it's "sharp enough", though others say that less than Rc 60 at the edge will lead to edge rolling on tougher targets.

Though the 26 inch katana from Kris Cutlery seems like a good compromise between the two. A differentially hardened 5160 spring steel blade that's 2-3 inches shorter than typical katanas. The saya and blade polish leaves more to be desired, but it sounds very convenient if those two are the main cost cutting measures.

Granted, QC issues may change over time and the Cheness/Hanwei swords might have improved in quality since then.

However, the glowing reviews from Sword-Buyers-Guide kind of dampened my enthusiasm. Kind of a weird reaction to a positive review(a whole series of them) I know. But when they have their own line of custom made swords, made note of the fact that they "partnered" with Cheness Cutlery, and then coincidentally giving them all 4-5 star reviews? Seems like a biased source to me.

The possibility of better quality fittings draw me to consider Cheness again, but thinking carefully upon it, I haven't found a reason NOT to buy the Kris Cutlery version. SBG gave it a bad rap, but every other source seems to swear by it.

Sometimes I feel like buying a sword is so much more complicated than picking out a knife.

 

[Hesparus]

As a matter of fact, the cheness 'oniyuri' is a special production commissioned by Masaaki Hatsumi, the current grandmaster of the Togakure ryu ninjitsu lineage. It is supposedly a reproduction of a blade he has in his own personal collection.
Arashi forge makes a ko katana that was comissioned by Unsui Manaka (another master of togakure ryu ninjitsu), as his preferred style for ninjitsu swordsmanship. This one has a more 'normal' handle length (10.5" I believe), and is also in your price range.
It sounds like any of the cheness ko-katanas will serve you fine for what you're looking for (with the exception of the 1045 steel blades made by cheness). For light cutting, even 1060 will be fine as long as you aren't trying to chop down trees. The 5160/9260 blades are within your price range and will be superior. There's no reason for a differentially hardened blade for what you're looking for.

- Chris

 

[Bimmer1]

You said you want an "extended tsuba"......did you mean an extended tsuka?

 

[Noctis3880]

You said you want an "extended tsuba"......did you mean an extended tsuka?

Ah yes, dang japanese words:thumbdn:.

Anyhow, I decided to grit my teeth and get the Kris Cutlery 26-A katana. Certainly longer than I would like without a Bo-Hi, but from what I hear it'll be quite the cutter(might even be overkill a little).

Saya is just plain wood finish and the polish on the blade isn't impressive, but at least with that I know exactly what the cost cutting measures are.

Edit:
Actually, after some mulling over on the Oniyuri, I question the practical use of the "deceiving" long length saya. I figure the actual draw will be less than half a second faster to clear the sheath compared to a full size katana, and the only way to get that advantage is if you can carry the sword in public among other people with katanas, and you plan to assassinate one of them. Seems more like it's for the "cool factor" than anything else.

 

[Hesparus]

You're right, there's no modern practical use for the long saya on the oniyuri — but it isn't designed for modern practical use (and really, what sword is?). If you were facing someone with a normal length katana, that fraction of a second would actually make a huge difference.
Also, I reread this thread and you mentioned sharpening your sword on a bench grinder. This will ruin the geometry and the finish of the blade, both of which will vastly reduce its cutting power. I recommend you use either arkansas stones and/or sandpaper and be sure to maintain the original geometry.

- Chris

 

[Kohai999]

Ah yes, dang japanese words:thumbdn:.

Actually, after some mulling over on the Oniyuri, I question the practical use of the "deceiving" long length saya. I figure the actual draw will be less than half a second faster to clear the sheath compared to a full size katana, and the only way to get that advantage is if you can carry the sword in public among other people with katanas, and you plan to assassinate one of them. Seems more like it's for the "cool factor" than anything else.

If the Japanese words give you a hard time, just use the English translation.

While I personally don't care for overly long tsuka, the long saya does not present any particular problems. Cutting them down from the kojiri end and slapping on a new piece of water buffalo is one of the easiest mods to nihonto styled blades.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Noctis3880]

I thought I might share a few pictures of my Kris Cutlery Katana.

As you can see, fittings are very plain and non-traditional(nowhere near what the Hanwei Tactical Wakizashi is, but definitely not traditional fittings). Finish isn't exactly mirror, but better than typical satin finish on production knives.

After I spent about 3 hours on a buffing wheel:

The differences probably aren't obvious in the photos, but up close it really looks like my sword was made of a large piece of mirror rather than steel. Unfortunately, the WD-40 I used to remove the fingerprints left by my fingers seem to have scratched the surface for some odd reason(not sure if WD-40 has abrasives).

Edge was also significantly dulled by the buffing, and I didn't manage to fix it completely with my paper wheels(definitely tricky to sharpen). But that'll be a project for tomorrow:thumbup:.

 

[Bimmer1]

How thick is the steel along the spine at its thickest point on the Kris Cutlery katana?

 

[Noctis3880]

How thick is the steel along the spine at its thickest point on the Kris Cutlery katana?

A little hard to tell with a ruler, but I believe it's 3/16 of an inch.

 

[DannyinJapan]

As a matter of fact, the cheness 'oniyuri' is a special production commissioned by Masaaki Hatsumi, the current grandmaster of the Togakure ryu ninjitsu lineage. It is supposedly a reproduction of a blade he has in his own personal collection. - Chris

This is not true. Some Bujinkan people may have asked for Cheness to copy an aluminum, Japanese-made iaito commissioned by Sensei, but they messed up the measurements if they did.
(The real blade is 19", not 24")

I would go with one of the Cheness Kogatana if I were you. They have good dimensions and have received good reviews.