Chosera/nan/2k

S

Slim7

Joined
Oct 11, 2015
Messages
80
I need some of the experienced people to give me some advice. This is concerning bevels setter for my straight razor. I actually just bought a Shapton pro 2k and I don't like it, the reason is because is scratches deep, meaning by the time I get to my Nan/12k it still leaves rogue scratches. It also loads up very quick and feels kinda gummy, not bad but in a way. The reason I bought it was because most everyone's benchmark for good bevels setter is Chosera 1k, and some guys said the shapton 2k pro is pretty close to a Chosera 1k.. Anyways I would like to know if anyone has any experience with the Chosera/Nan/2k. If so does it finish finer and faster than the Shapton 2k? I am also worried about cracking, although some people have issues while others don't. I would like to safe myself some grief and frustraion.. Shapton Pros don't play well with other some manufacturers stones. Every manufacturers grit system can vary a little. .

---Mike
 
I don't recommend ever going below 4k for routine "bevel setting."

The Chosera 1k is a poor choice for razors, it's just far to slow and causes too much damage to the apex.
I'd use a DMT EF or Atoma 1200 for serious removal, or maybe a muddy 1k-ish stone like the King, understanding that there will be severe apex damage to remove with the 4k.
 
ToddS said:
I don't recommend ever going below 4k for routine "bevel setting."

The Chosera 1k is a poor choice for razors, it's just far to slow and causes too much damage to the apex.
I'd use a DMT EF or Atoma 1200 for serious removal, or maybe a muddy 1k-ish stone like the King, understanding that there will be severe apex damage to remove with the 4k.
Click to expand...
I didn't like the king, so I cut it up for a conditioning stone. The Shapton glass HC is not fast enough for bevel setting and that's what I have . As far as going to diamonds, I don't unless it's sever damage, I have the 500 glass hr for that.. So the Chosera is a slow stone? Uh - I haven't heard that yet.. I sure it is not for high hardness and carbide rich steel, but for simple carbon razors and stainless it would assume it would cut that.Seems to be pretty much on top, based on the reading I have done over the past few days. Although everyone has different preferences, and opinions.
 
ToddS said:
I don't recommend ever going below 4k for routine "bevel setting."

The Chosera 1k is a poor choice for razors, it's just far to slow and causes too much damage to the apex.
I'd use a DMT EF or Atoma 1200 for serious removal, or maybe a muddy 1k-ish stone like the King, understanding that there will be severe apex damage to remove with the 4k.
Click to expand...
Diamond plates inflict way more damage to an apex than.a chosera 1k. Because the particles are embedded in a unforgiving metal "bed" and there is no give. Now I'm not.saying you can't.use a dmt or atoma 1200. I have done so. The overwhelming straight razor community seems to find the chosera agreeable. Have you ever used one or are you just repeating what someone else wrote?
 
Bill3152 said:
Diamond plates inflict way more damage to an apex than.a chosera 1k. Because the particles are embedded in a unforgiving metal "bed" and there is no give. Now I'm not.saying you can't.use a dmt or atoma 1200. I have done so. The overwhelming straight razor community seems to find the chosera agreeable. Have you ever used one or are you just repeating what someone else wrote?
Click to expand...

I have measured the abrasion rate on straight razor steel with straight razor honing pressure:
https://scienceofsharp.com/2016/12/21/abrasion-rate-vs-grit/
The DMT EF was more than four times faster than the Chosera 1k.

The DMT EF does not "inflict" more damage than the Chosera 1k, both will require 1-2 microns of steel removal with a finer stone.
 
Right faster because it cuts more aggressively. Which is part of the problem with using a diamond plate. If you dont get that well I cant help you. (Ive honed several thousand razors in my lifetime). The court of popular opinion is almost unanimous with regards to the chosera 1k. You dont have to like it. But most people do. I wonder why? List of 1k or equivalent stones Ive used personally, atoma 1200, dmt 1200, king 1k, norton 1k, shapton glass 1k, chosera 1k, naniwas ss 1k. There may be a few more that I cant remember at the moment. Regarding using a 4k for bevels. You definitely can, but if you have a razor that isnt there with regards to the edge then you will need a very long time to get the apex to meet. You can refresh a bevel with a finisher. Ive done so many times with slight slurry on a jnat. Using a diamond plate requires more metal removal. The particles are embedded in the plate but a 15 micron particle (half embedded and half on the surface) would require more than 1 to 2 microns of steel to be removed unless you want to leave the deep scratches. That goes for the chosera 1k also. It would be at least 7 to 8 microns to remove the 1200 or equivalent scratches. Then at least 4 microns more for the 5k scratches (if thats what your using after the bevel setter etc). And then to whatever your grit is.
 
So much misinformation, but let's just focus on the DMT EF vs Chosera 1k, which I wrote about 7 years ago here:
https://scienceofsharp.com/2014/04/13/the-bevel-set/

They both get you to essentially the same point, but the DMT EF will do it in a quarter of the time. As I linked earlier, the Chosera 1k came in at 1.8 microns per hundred strokes while the DMT EF was 7.6 microns per hundred strokes.
 
The misinformation is the claim that you only.need.to.remove 1 or.2 microns after using a 15 micron "grit" diamond plate. Your count in strokes is extremely variable. How much pressure? What type of steel. Etc etc etc. I don't care what people use to hone with. But more aggressive means it cuts DEEPER each time. I've used diamond plates many times. But on razors that are way off and I would stop before the scratches cut into the apex. The whole honing process is in the 10 minutes realm. Unless your razor is way off or was honed freehand like a.knife. It doesn't take.hours to do. But use what you like. Popular opinion doesn't agree with you though. One thing I will say is my.go.to.hone when I'm dealing with a very hard steels razor has been a dmt 6 micron plate(4k equivalent). It does cut faster than a chosera in some.rare.instances. I use the 4k because the 1200 cuts too deep imo. And.it.takes.more.time.to.remove the deeper scratches than the time you save on the.bevel stage.
 
Facts? The micron size determines the depth of the cut. 15 microns divided by 2 is 7.5. from a dmt. From a stone is a different story. As the particles and binders are wearing constantly whereas there is no binder in the diamond plate. Just diamonds sticking up off the plate. You said a diamond plate after so many strokes penetrated 7.6 microns. Whereas the same amount of strokes on a chosera was 1.8 microns. The diamond plate leaves deeper scratches. End.of.story. from.your own words not mind. I am not.interested in the science of sharp. I'm more interested in my own observations. I have to believe my own eyes don't I? Lol. Think about what your saying. It's mathematical. not an.opinion.
 
I showed that the total material removal per 100 back-and-forth strokes was 7.6 microns, and I showed the deepest scratches are less than 1 micron, and typically much less.

Just to be clear, you do know that scienceofsharp is my blog, that I made these measurements myself, right?
 
I didn't know it was your blog. Did you measure how fast a 120 grit diamond plate cuts? Surely you could use that as it's much faster. I am not the only one who has observed what I have been saying to you. I dont see your blog mentioned on the main razor forums either. Maybe they feel the same way as I do thru their own personal observation?
 
First, if you are finding "rogue scratches" then you have not properly used the previous stones. It is not the stones fault you have left over scratches.

Second, don't get lost in thinking you need every specific stone someone mentions. You will be better served building a quality set of stones that suits your needs and adding as necessary. Like in my video (as I speak about below) my base for that sharpening consist of the Naniwa Chosera 400, 800 and 3000 and I add stones as necessary for the task. Having a bunch of different stones and trying to make it work is usually the road most go down before building a good base of stones that work. You need something consistent and it sounds like you are just grabbing at anything to fill the blank?

I just noticed your comment on my video (I'm MrEdgy) and Yes... Chosera stones finish better than other stones but like in the video I only go to 3k because Finer Chosera stones still make a fairly toothy edge and you need smooth with a razor. The Chosera stones and specifically the 400, 800 and 3000 set a great base for any polishing job from knives to razors and more because the scratch pattern these stones produce is simply superior to most other stones. I don't have the Snow white anymore... it cracked apart but I have wanted to get another Kitayama 8k as a replacement (I've had several before). The Kitayama is used by one of the big brands so I figured it would be a good choice, and I won't have to worry about it cracking.

There are some Chosera stones I do not recommend, like the 600 which I feel is pointless when the 400 is better in every way, and the 2k which is very hard and feels unpleasant to sharpen on. It's finish is also not nearly as good as the 3k. I would also completely stay away from Shaptons for razor honing, the 500 for setting a bevel might be ok but the finer grits are just not fine enough because the finish is more aggressive making for a very uncomfortable shave.

Personally, I was never a fan of the Naniwa SS to polish razors and the 12k is like an urban legend IMO, sounds awesome but is more meh. I'm also not one to go past 8k before switching to a strop. For stropping I like Chromium oxide on balsa wood as a pre-polish then a healthy amount of passes on a hanging strop. I find a hanging strop to be one of the best tools in razor honing, it produces a quality of shave I simply cannot get from a loaded strop.
 
Jason B. said:
First, if you are finding "rogue scratches" then you have not properly used the previous stones. It is not the stones fault you have left over scratches.

Second, don't get lost in thinking you need every specific stone someone mentions. You will be better served building a quality set of stones that suits your needs and adding as necessary. Like in my video (as I speak about below) my base for that sharpening consist of the Naniwa Chosera 400, 800 and 3000 and I add stones as necessary for the task. Having a bunch of different stones and trying to make it work is usually the road most go down before building a good base of stones that work. You need something consistent and it sounds like you are just grabbing at anything to fill the blank?

I just noticed your comment on my video (I'm MrEdgy) and Yes... Chosera stones finish better than other stones but like in the video I only go to 3k because Finer Chosera stones still make a fairly toothy edge and you need smooth with a razor. The Chosera stones and specifically the 400, 800 and 3000 set a great base for any polishing job from knives to razors and more because the scratch pattern these stones produce is simply superior to most other stones. I don't have the Snow white anymore... it cracked apart but I have wanted to get another Kitayama 8k as a replacement (I've had several before). The Kitayama is used by one of the big brands so I figured it would be a good choice, and I won't have to worry about it cracking.

There are some Chosera stones I do not recommend, like the 600 which I feel is pointless when the 400 is better in every way, and the 2k which is very hard and feels unpleasant to sharpen on. It's finish is also not nearly as good as the 3k. I would also completely stay away from Shaptons for razor honing, the 500 for setting a bevel might be ok but the finer grits are just not fine enough because the finish is more aggressive making for a very uncomfortable shave.

Personally, I was never a fan of the Naniwa SS to polish razors and the 12k is like an urban legend IMO, sounds awesome but is more meh. I'm also not one to go past 8k before switching to a strop. For stropping I like Chromium oxide on balsa wood as a pre-polish then a healthy amount of passes on a hanging strop. I find a hanging strop to be one of the best tools in razor honing, it produces a quality of shave I simply cannot get from a loaded strop.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the reply.
I am not using the Hr, I am using the HC series of glass stones they are fast enough for razors with simply alloys , they are designed for simpler steels, and polish more than they cut, but 4k/hc still is a cutter, I don't think it's aggressive enough to remove the Shapton pro 2k. I had the Shapton pro 8k, and the 5k also and I sold them, IMO the 8k is not were near 8k.. The 5k was ok, but it felt dead, and almost rubbery..
 
Yeah, Shaptons dont do great on razors so I would address that first. The HC are designed for carbon steels so they have limited use.

I would recommend putting together a set of stones specific for razor honing.
 
Jason B. said:
Yeah, Shaptons dont do great on razors so I would address that first. The HC are designed for carbon steels so they have limited use.

I would recommend putting together a set of stones specific for razor honing.
Click to expand...
They do a fine job on razors, and I enjoy the edges, the pro scratches are a sight. . The Shapton pros juSt scratch deep, not just that stone but all the ones I have tried: 1.5k, 2k ,5k 8k..

So is the Nan/pro finer than any of the shapton's especially the 2k?

I know that the 4k HC is way finer than the shapton pro 5k, and faster too.
 
Slim7 said:
They do a fine job on razors, and I enjoy the edges, the pro scratches are a sight. . The Shapton pros juSt scratch deep, not just that stone but all the ones I have tried: 1.5k, 2k ,5k 8k..

So is the Nan/pro finer than any of the shapton's especially the 2k?

I know that the 4k HC is way finer than the shapton pro 5k, and faster too.
Click to expand...

If they did a fine job then you wouldn't be here asking questions.

Again, build a set and stop trying to use random stones.

Also... Again, Shapton stone suck for razor honing. Both the Pro and Glass are too aggressive for razors. I have about 300+ razor honings under my belt, Its not my targeted market but I know how to make someone elses razor shave smoothly and thats harder than sharpening your own razor.

I can only give the advice, I can't force you to accept it.
 
Maybe that all I can afford!! Why are you throwing off on my gear? The only one that sucks is the Shapton pro 2k infact the whole line up does..
 
Slim7 said:
Maybe that all I can afford!! Why are you throwing off on my gear? The only one that sucks is the Shapton pro 2k infact the whole line up does..
Click to expand...

Lol, thats all you can afford? So all you can afford is some of the very best waterstones made? You realize how silly that sounds?

I have nearly a full set of Shapton Glass and Pro stones and they are by far my favorite and most used stones. That said, I'll be the first to admit when that dont do a specific task well and razor honing is one of those things.

You ask for advice and advice has been given but you are challenging that advice. I'm also not calling your gear crap Im informing you its the wrong tool for the job.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top