Chosing the right sharpener for each tool, and how to sharpen.

[Sir Joe]

Hello guys.

EDIT: this thread was originally posted elsewhere and was also about the difference between steels and how to chose the right steel for each tool (something I still wish to learn, so, eventually you are welcome to give me some tips about where I may read about that).
Given that now the subject is mostly sharpening, you can go directly to the post n°12 to avoid reading things which are not necessary to the subject.
Still, a quick introduction: I am a new gardener and a eager learner, and I am a big geek with tools. My colleagues call me Inspector Gadget.
Now I need to know how to chose the right sharpener for each tool, and how to actually sharpen.
I do not start from zero, but have very few experience in that.
Tools which I may need to sharpen: bypass pruner, shears, hedge shears, knives (for now only cheap ones, but all different. Some stainless with one sided edge, one opinel, and soon a curved one like sort of karambit), spade, spike axe/hawk (still have to chose one, have created a thread for that).

So, you can skip to the post 12 now, and, thanks a lot for your help!

 

[Karl B. Andersen]

In the words of my oldest knife making friend, Jerry Rados, "Jesus Christ can send a bar of steel down from Heaven - it will only be as good as the heat treatment it gets on Earth."

In other words, concern yourself less with steel "type" and spend more time researching whether or not the maker/company knows what TO DO with its chosen steel type(s).

As well, in the words of Roman Landes - a German metallurgist and sword/kitchen knife maker, "Geometry cuts. Heat treatment determines how long."
Literally, I can grind a piece of worthless mild steel, that can not be hardened, extremely sharp and cut things with it. However, it will only cut once or twice. And at the same time, harden and temper a "designer" steel and grind it poorly, and it won't cut anything.

Many facets must be considered.

And sometimes the least thought of components can make all the difference.

 

[Boris74]

If you can't buy sharpening tools right now then make them. There are so many things around you that can be combined to make some wicked edges you'd never believe it. Old leather belt, glue, a piece of scrap board and some valve grinding compound. Cut the belt to length, glue to scrap board, put some valve grinding compound on it and it will more than just touch up. If it has a edge on it, even a dull one you will be able to strop it back. I don't know a single person who don't have them materials laying around. Use the stones you got for the rough work and the strop will keep it sharp a long time with touch ups making trips to the stones few and far between. You don't have to spend anything at all to get a wicked edge. Just get creative. I've got some pretty smooth patio block out front that will put a rough touch up on my outside work blades pretty quick. Even rocks work great on carbon and basic stainless steels. The valve grinding compound on cardboard will put a heck of a polished edge on a blade too if your into super smooth edges.

 

[Sir Joe]

"Geometry cuts. Heat treatment determines how long."

German sense of humour. A rare thing

Well, thanks, that was already a big first help.
Now I understand why my cheap Eden knife has lost its edge after a few light uses even if the 8cr13mov should be good enough.

We'll see, I have experimented with the DMT today (I have as said almost 0 experience in sharpening). Now it cuts again very well.

Anyway at least for cheaper tools the producers almost never write the kind of heat treatment. Only the kind of steel.
May I suppose that if somebody does not write the heat treatment it is because the quality of the production is standard, and that in that case wins the one with "better" steel?

But, what about the assumption that 420 and other stainless steel are not good for axes?
Is that true?
This is what made me wish to learn more about steel.
In that case I do not even need to know about heat treatment, I can just assume that the axe with 1055 is better than the one with 420. At least, given that we are speaking of relatively good names (crkt, cold steel, estwing) not of any 1055.
The heat treatment could be more important to decide between the three ones with 1055...
Right?

 

[Sir Joe]

If you can't buy sharpening tools right now then make them

That is a nice McGyver attitude, I like it.
But, I can buy some not too expensive hand sharpeners.
I mean, I cannot buy metallurgic machines to change the shape of an axe like some people do.
And I cannot buy expensive Japanese or Belgian sharpening stones.
But I can buy cheaper synthetic ones.
I cannot buy the expensive Gransfors round ceramic stone but I can buy the cheap Lansky The Puck.
I cannot buy a Spyderco sharpening system but I can buy a Lansky BladeMedic (which I actually prefer right now because I need something portable).
It is at least a start.
I mean, if something is really so unusable that it would be one of those cases where to save money you end by spending more (because you must throw the cheap thing away and buy again a better one), that is not good. But if there are some usable cheap alternatives, I can start with them.
I kind of liked the easy fast effect of the DMT I have used today. It was not even so cheap after all

 

[ThePeacent]

That is a nice McGyver attitude, I like it.
But, I can buy some not too expensive hand sharpeners.
I mean, I cannot buy metallurgic machines to change the shape of an axe like some people do.
And I cannot buy expensive Japanese or Belgian sharpening stones.
But I can buy cheaper synthetic ones.
I cannot buy the expensive Gransfors round ceramic stone but I can buy the cheap Lansky The Puck.
I cannot buy a Spyderco sharpening system but I can buy a Lansky BladeMedic (which I actually prefer right now because I need something portable).
It is at least a start.
I mean, if something is really so unusable that it would be one of those cases where to save money you end by spending more (because you must throw the cheap thing away and buy again a better one), that is not good. But if there are some usable cheap alternatives, I can start with them.
I kind of liked the easy fast effect of the DMT I have used today. It was not even so cheap after all

I used the blademedic when I started to learn knife sharpening. It served me well during two years and its portability helped a lot because I could practice with it between classes or while traveling in the bus for many hours during the week.
Then I slowly stepped up with cheap Arkansas stones and the DMT models. Nowadays I use the Spyderco Sharpmaker, better ceramic stones and the trusty DMT diafolds.
But the BladeMedic was the first. Great little tool. Smiths did a similar one, much lighter and weaker but with similar sharpening implements. I recommend it a lot especially since you can carry it everywhere. Great also for camping and backpacking!

 

[Surfingringo]

Hi Sir Joe, I strongly recommend spending some time in the Maintenance and Tinkering subforum here. There are some very talented sharpeners there who are willing to pass along some great info. Hang around there awhile and you will quickly figure out what "scary sharp" is all about.

 

[Sir Joe]

EDIT: after the revelation about the Maintenance subforum I need to edit here to avoid writing more about sharpening here, given that I am going to write the same there.
But still, in answer about the Blademedic and Diafold:
I actually have the DMT Diafold. The one with red and blue stone but the new version with transparent handle.
I still want to add the BladeMedic for the combination of conic pole diamond file and the v sharpeners and the ceramic thing. It will be great for quick sharpening of cheap knives at least.

 

[Sir Joe]

Hi Sir Joe, I strongly recommend spending some time in the Maintenance and Tinkering subforum here. There are some very talented sharpeners there who are willing to pass along some great info. Hang around there awhile and you will quickly figure out what "scary sharp" is all about.

Ah. That subforum you mean. That one which I had not noticed till now even if I had actually specifically looked at it before asking here?
Thanks.

So, I suppose we can ignore the sharpening theme here and just talk of the steels.
I still want to learn that!

 

[RevDevil]

Ah. That subforum you mean. That one which I had not noticed till now even if I had actually specifically looked at it before asking here?
Thanks.

So, I suppose we can ignore the sharpening theme here and just talk of the steels.
I still want to learn that!

Too late, we've moved into sharpening land. To learn about steels, read, read, and read some more. Then read a little more. Buy knives in steels that interest you and try them. The best teacher is first hand experience.

 

[Sir Joe]

Hmmm, ok, luckily I have read this before opening the new thread which I was writing.
But, about the steel thing, I am not that kind of learner. I know what you mean but you know, people have different way of learning. I am not a doer. I am not so good in learning mostly from personal experience, I prefer to have people who tell me things first, and then do my experience starting from something else than 0.
As a moderator you may have noticed if somebody has already talked of steels here. Which I actually would be surprised if it was not so.
Could you give me some tips about some thread here which may be useful? I did not find much in my searches (I am not a bright searcher, but I did search).
Google also did not really help too much, as said.
Thanks

 

[Sir Joe]

So, here we go with the new start.

You know from the opening post what I need to sharpen.
I need now to chose the right sharpener for each tool, and the right way to use it.

I generally try to buy the best tool from the beginning, but now I do not have much money and I also would not like to destroy a good sharpened for misuse (for example I have used a cylindric oil stone to sharpen a spade and after that the stone was in a very bad condition. It may also be that the spade was very dull and the stone not coarse enough, but I may have misused it).

In this moment I own a cheap synthetic water stone with I suppose medium grit, flat surface and elliptic shape. I have used it once on my opinel but had no good results.
I also own a DTM double side diafold, red/blue (coarse/fine). I planned to use it for the pruners and the knives and the shears.
I was planning to buy a Lansky BladeMedic because I need a conic diamond pole for things like a spyderco crossbill with waved blade, or also for this knife which I will get soon.
On top of that the BladeMedic has got two v shapers (carbide and ceramic) which may be nice to quickly sharpen a knife on the go, specially for me as I am not experienced enough to get a good edge with a stone. The additional straight ceramic sharpener may be good for a finer finish after the red diafold too.

For spade and axe I was planning to buy a Lansky The Puck and a Barnel B-ShapXL, as I am traumatized by how I have destroyed that cylindric oil stone.

Do you think it is ok of do you have other suggestions?


Here is what I know about sharpening:
- you go from the edge toward the inside of the blade
- coarse is enough for sharp, but fine will make the sharp last longer because there are no teeth on the blade
- there is always a blur, you just make it smaller with finer grit
- carbide is bad. waterstones need water for 10 min, oil stone need just some oil on it right before the use (wd40 is ok), diamond can be used with water or dry but not with oil. Ceramic is generally very fine and it is a cool thing to finish the sharpening, and should be used dry.
- keep the angle
- too obtuse angle is not sharp enough, too thin angle is not resistant enough.

That.

What I have not clear is:
- when should I do long strokes which cover the whole blade, and when should I do perpendicular strokes which cover only a portion of the blade as wide as the sharpener? For example I see that the man on the DMT videos makes all kind of blades with long strokes, but to get the edge on the curved part of my opinel I had to do perpendicular strokes, and to make a pruner with the thick double side diafold (yes I know I should have bought two thin ones, but I thought I could save money) I kind of have to do some perpendicular strokes... Is it ok? Is it a matter of lack of experience? Is it different methods for different situations?
- is it the same if instead of moving the blade on the stone I move the stone on the blade, or if instead of moving the diafold on the knife I move the knife on the diafold (which I had to do with a little knife with the edge on the left side)?
- can I use a v sharpener (like the two on the Lansky BladeMedic) for knives with the edge on one side only?
- when i do a knife with edge on one side, should I do the other side quickly (like one stroke with fine grit) at the end? And what about shears and bypass pruners? For example the man of DMT says that the flat side of the pruner's blade should never be touched, but other people (even Felco) say it should be done quickly at the end.
- the man of DMT makes one side of the anvil pruners from the edge toward the inside of the blade, and the other side in the other direction. I knew that one should never go from inside out. What's wrong, my knowledge or his method?
- what is the advantage of having the edge on one side only on tools like knives and spades? Can I safely modify my "one side edged" tools to "two side edged"?

This is all my knowledge.
All what I did not say and did not ask, I completely ignore it and you are welcome to teach me

THANKS

 

[bucketstove]

German sense of humour. A rare thing

Well, thanks, that was already a big first help.
Now I understand why my cheap Eden knife has lost its edge after a few light uses even if the 8cr13mov should be good enough.

most common cause of losing edge quickly, is poor sharpening job ... there is a burr and you're just folding it, practically instant dull
or
you've overstropped the edge (100s of passes) to the point its just waiting to crumble (almost turned the edge into a burr)
or
you've used too much force when microbeveling , the effect is just like overstropping, almost turned the edge into a burr
or
edge could have been burnt at the factory when sharpening on power equipment without coolant, a few (3) sharpenings ought to remove that damage

so, if there is no burr, and you're not overstropping or using too much force when doing the final sharpening strokes (like for microbevel)

then its probably the heat treat

i've accomplished these mistakes at different times
leaving a burr that just folds, overstropping with too much force on plain paper (just to see what its like),
too much force when microbeveling , and for too long , months ago before I could scrape shave hairs, when my angles were greater than 15dps and when i switched too quickly to finer (before burr)

I have also seen a burnt edge (discolored stainless) with a giant burr...

I don't think I've seen a bad heat treat, but I don't think I could tell ... I'm sticking with dollar store stainless kitchen knives for now

 

[bucketstove]

... as I am traumatized by how I have destroyed that cylindric oil stone...

So you broke it in half?
Unless you broke it in half, stone still has decades of life in it

I think you have more than enough equipment to learn to sharpen everything you own, easily to paper slicing sharp, and almost as easy to arm hair scrape shaving sharp

So stop thinking about buying more equipment, you don't need it, just watch this video
how to sharpen a knife - Joe Calton
and then go practice getting your knives sharp. use two hands, and go easy on the diamonds (light pressure, practice on other not-diamond stone)

Raise a burr on each side, weaken the burr, and then cut it off.
Pick a ~4inch knife, give it about 5minutes, go fast to raise a burr, then slow down to weaken it and cut it off.
You should be able to slice newspaper effortlessly and scrape shave arm hair.


When you can slice newspaper or scrape shave hair, consider trying to sharpen other tools.

It shouldn't take too long once your realize what you're supposed to do,
what your hands are actually doing, and what you're looking at,
but it might take some time to get to that point,
unless you have a buddy who can show you what you're doing.


I use at least water on all the sharpening stones I have, it doesn't take a lot of it to keep the dust down

Thats it for knives

If you got half hour (times four) and want to see one of everything get sharpened
see ▶ "How to sharpen anything and still keep a smile on your face" - Warren Goodyer part 1...


These links also have some of this info and ...
consistant angle and you better watch yourself

 

[HeavyHanded]

For spade and axe I was planning to buy a Lansky The Puck and a Barnel B-ShapXL, as I am traumatized by how I have destroyed that cylindric oil stone.

Do you think it is ok of do you have other suggestions?

For spade, garden shears, axe, use a file, not a stone. Clean off the tool, remove rust, file it down. On the axe if you want to go finer, then switch to a stone, but to start use a file. Almost all garden tools will be heat treated to low 50s Rockwell at most, a stone is not the right tool unless the edge is already well established and in good shape.

Also, diamonds can be used with thin oils, not with solvents like kerosene etc - it can cause issues with the nickel plating. Thin oils are OK.

 

[Sir Joe]

Ahaha, no, I did not break the stone. I will make picture anyway so you understand what I mean.
It just has lost LOT of material for just ONE use.
I think I just have no experience and I cannot understand which grit the stone has. I mean, maybe you see the stone and understand "oh, this is middle grit, I will never get the edge I want with this".
I think the tool was of very hard steel and in very bad shape. And the stone was not the right tool for the first round.
Not THAT stone, at least.

Well, I thank you both for the suggestions.
I have ordered the BladeDoctor (was that the name?). And the Namiwa Rust Ereaser (I want to try to save the Jakoti Shears which got so rusty after just ONCE I left them wet for one day).
I have experimented with the DMT Diafold on a cheap Pruner, and it is really very difficult to keep the right angle on that tool without unmounting it.
I think I made the wrong choice. I had to buy two (coarse and fine) of the thin ones or of the small ones which they sell specifically for pruners.
This double sided Diafold is a bit too thick.
Whatever.
For now I have no money for other tools