Civil War type calvary saber reproductions...

J

JimmyJimenez

Joined
Sep 30, 2005
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I have seen quite a few different 1860 (M1862?) U.S. calvary saber reproductions being offered, but have always wondered how true they were to the originals.

It seems a lot of copies are made in India, with the Windlass Steelcrafts company version, usually sold through their Atlanta Cutlery Division and selling for about $60 or $70, probably being the best of that crop. Even so, these are considered to be greatly lacking as well.

I noticed that the Chinese offer a "Confederate States of America" calvary saber reproduction, but it does little in the arena of visual accuracy, and is definitely nothing more than a true wall hanger in it's construction materials and quality.

There is an American company that actually evolved from the real "Ames" sword company of old (which actually made real U.S. Calvary Swords). The Original Ames firm was sold a few times over, and the Ames name was dropped somewhere along the way. The current "Ames" name is owned by this modern day U.S. firm, and can trace it's heritage to the real "Ames" company of old.

I contacted the Ames firm and asked them a few questions pertaining to their Calvary Saber.

*One was about the markings found on the blade and hilt.

*Another question was about their component's origins (since I had heard that their blade on their version was actually an import from India).

I never once mentioned or asked about swords/blades of Toledo, Spain, but for some reason they felt compelled to throw in Toledo made swords into the discussion. I found that strange, though no harm done, it was weird that they felt they had to throw that in.

Anyhow, the reason I was asking questions, was that I was hoping that maybe their sword was actually a 100% American made product (I know, I know,........... wishful thinking) ;)

Anyhow, I figure that the Ames response to my questions would be something that would probably interest some of you here, so here it is..........

Mr. Jimenez:

Thanks for your inquiry. First, Toledo steel is the "best" is an opinion
from years ago. To quote from "Porgy & Bess"- It Ain't Necessarily So.
Blades in Toledo swords today are no longer hand made. Our saber blades are
manufactured in India to our specifications. Should you have any questions
about their ability to produce quality, let me tell you that the current
contract for USMC NCO Swords is issued to the same company that manufactures our blades.

The swords are completed and finished in our factory. There are different
qualities available from India. Our sabers are usd by the US 2nd Cavalry
detachment at Fort Hood for their Horse Cavalry unit and they are
battleready. They are used in actual civil war era saber drills daily. The
edge is not sharpened, but neither were the originals. It is not necessary
with such a massive blade.

The blades are ground from 1095 carbon steel as were the originals. The
standard Ames markings and US Inspectors marks appear on the blades. The
INDIA marks are stickers which are removed during finishing. If you can find
someone willing to do a hand forged sword blade, let alone a complete sword
for $175 please let me know.

I think you would be pleased with our quality.

I hope this answers your questions.

Keith V. Bailey, Prod. Mgr.
Ames Sword Company


"Our saber blades are manufactured in India to our specifications. Should you have any questions about their ability to produce quality, let me tell you that the current contract for USMC NCO Swords is issued to the same company that manufactures our blades."

What this means is that the blade on their sword is manufactured by the Windlass Steelcrafts company of India.

Well, so much for my hope that it was a true American made Saber ;)
 
JimmyJimenez, you will never find a forged American made saber for anything like $175.00. The reason that you see them made in India and elsewhere is that the cost of the hand-work involved is too great at American wages for what most people are willing to pay. If you really want to have an American made saber, I am certain that there are smiths out there who would make one for you, but expect to pay at least $750 or more for the saber without the scabbard. I believe that ArmArt in the Czech Republic offered a Model 1861 Light Cavalry Saber for about $700 some years back, but they got into a lot of trouble with deliveries and the option was dropped.
 
FullerH, I understand that perfectly, and it's why I said it was wishful thinking on my part ;)

The reason I had to contact them and ask questions is because they offered such little product information.

Their website offered little, so I had to request a hard copy catalog. The catalog only offered the same info as their website, which was not much at all, and only showed sword diagrams, not actual photos.

I was hoping that their catalog would have given information to answer such questions as:

*Where is the entire sword made?

*If some components are foreign, which parts, and where are they made?

*How is the blade made (ie: hand forged, stock removal method/milled from barstock)?

*Type of steel?

*Markings found on the blade and hilt?

I believe that the above and other points should have been pointed out on their website and in their catalog. No need for them to have been specific about "who" makes their components, but at least where and the manner in which they are made. In other words, they are seriously lacking in specifics/details.

Anyhow, without me asking the questions, I would not have known where the blade was made, how it was made, and what to expect as far as product markings.

Even with asking these questions, I still do not know what these actually look like (them not showing a good product photo on their site and only a diagram in their catalog). I also don't know, and should have asked, where their scabbard is manufactured.

They may be offering a good representation for the money, but their marketing is by far lacking. They would probably do much better promoting their saber if their website and/or catalog were to offer and show the strong points of this product. Visual and factual details are a major selling point when done right, and I'm sorry to say,............. they just don't quite have that part right.


Though 175 dollars is not a very high price for a sword, it's still about 100 dollars more than the price tag of the 100% Windlass Steelcrafts version, and Windlass at least gives much better details and photos of their offerings. Also, since we now know that the Ames blade is actually produced in India by the same Windlass Steelcrafts company, one would hope that Ames would be proud to show and explain why their version is not just another cheap copy, and why it would be worth spending $100 more for their saber over the Windlass Steelcrafts version (other than the hilt possibly being made by Americans).


The questions were sent to extract more info, which it did, and I wanted to share that here for those that may be interested.

One can actually obtain a "real" 1860 U.S. Calvary sword in decent condition for around 500 to 700 dollars, and would not only be fully authentic, but probably a good investment as well. That's something that even the best 1860 calvary saber reproduction will forever lack, true authenticity/history of that model saber.

For that reason, a decision to spend that much on a 1860 saber would only be if the saber were an original specimen.
 
That depends upon what you intend to do with it. If you intend to use itas a wall decorator or as a collector's piece, well and good. But if you intend to use it in re-enactments or in live steel exercises, then you need to buy a replica and the extra $100 for the Ames model may well be worth it to get the proper stampings on it, especially for re-enactors.
 
FullerH said:
That depends upon what you intend to do with it. If you intend to use itas a wall decorator or as a collector's piece, well and good. But if you intend to use it in re-enactments or in live steel exercises, then you need to buy a replica and the extra $100 for the Ames model may well be worth it to get the proper stampings on it, especially for re-enactors.
Click to expand...

It's all the more reason why "Ames" should be more specific about their products.
Sharing details, specifics, and photos, can only help potential customers decide whether or not the product(s) will meet their needs.

The reason I chose to share the above information pertaining to the modern Ames sword, is that it may assist others interested in knowing more about them.

As for spending money on a sword that will be used for live steel re-enactment, the less than $85 version made by Windlass Steelcrafts will probably be just fine for most folks. They are usually considered accurate enough as representative pieces, are made of heat treated forged steel, and it's markings will usually not be much of an issue for someone planning on beating it up anyway. They are also cheap enough to allow for some good-ole American experimental handywork (including the removal of any markings that they may want off, or, adding some they may want on).
The WS offering will probably make one feel less guilty about beating it up during "live steel" re-enactments, especially at less than half the price of even the modern Ames offering, (which itself also carries a forged Windlass Steelcrafts blade) ;)

So the inexpensive WS piece will probably do just fine for those wanting a basic representative wallhanger and for those re-enactors that only "carry" them on their side and/or use them in "live steel" re-enactment duties.

But,........... if one allows for the expense of 700+ dollars, then a "real" authentic specimen will be a much better conversation piece on the wall, (when compared to a 700+ dollar "reproduction"). The authentic piece will forever be a relic that not only holds true American history, but one that can be considered a good investment as well (and a true heirloom for the family to pass on from generation to generation). It can also be an awesome "carry only" sword for some of the U.S. Civil War re-enactors, offering an extra fine touch of authenticity to their Historical re-enactment gear. This is something that some re-enactors have been doing for a long time now, owning and carrying the real things during Civil War re-enactments :)
As long as the authentic piece is in very good to excellent condition, maintaining it in that way should be no real problem for most re-enactors.

To each his own, and I'm not saying that a quality 700+ dollar 1860 reproduction has no market niche,........... but in my mind, I would say that the real things become a lot more desirable when considering to spend 700+ dollars ;)
 
Don't take this wrong, but that example is a big stretch from what we have been discussing here.

First off, the sword pictured in that link is based on swords that were made over 1000 years ago. Swords of that type, of that era, and in truly good to excellent condition, are truly "EXTREMELY" rare. If an authentic era sword were to be found that was exactly as that modern one pictured in that link, even in 80 to 85 percent condition, how much would it cost then?............... No need for you to answer that question, it being ok to just agree with me when I say that one's pockets better be a bit deeper than $4,000.

The example you noted is more of a modern work of art, though it's "based" on the true relics of old. I too would be more than proud to own such a piece.

But,............. what "I" have been discussing here are reproductions and authentic specimens of the 1860 U.S. Calvary Sword.

What is the difference you say?
Well, for one, the sword I'm discussing, (the authentic 1860 era specimens, which their repro's are based on), date less than 150 years back in our history.

Secondly, an "authentic" good to excellent condition specimen (not the repro's) can be had for about 500 to 1000 dollars, and though they are not found at every yard sale, they are far from being extremely rare.

Thirdly, I was not talking about artistic variations that may have extensive liberties added to them (which would then place the specimens in seperate custom art catagories).

Truth is, if one want's a "decent", but not great quality 1860 Calvary Sword reproduction, one can purchase something like the $80 Windlass Steelcrafts sword, or, even buy one of the $175 modern Ames swords, which will "probably" offer you a bit more visual accuracy and quality.

One can also go the route you had mentioned earlier, and that is to purchase an "excellent" quality 1860 reproduction that may be made by a good custom smith (possibly even being an "American made" product), but also possibly costing 700+ dollars.

Better yet, one can also hunt down a good to excellent condition original 1860 and very likely spend only about as much as the costly reproduction, (if not less), and have the real historical thing.


I love the quality look and beauty that the sword in your link shows, (by the way, thank you for sharing it with me),........ but,.......... if I had the option of owning a modern sword like that, or, having a similar one in excellent condition that was actually made during the era that the copy variant represents and at roughly the same price, I'd take the original hands down :)

But, as you know, one is not going to be able to purchase a real sword of that type, in that form, in similar condition, and of that original era, for such little cash as $4,000.


Now, back to the 1860 calvary sword.................

You can buy an "authentic" era 1860 saber in good to excellent condition for the price of an "excellent" high quality modern day copy of it. That would not be the case with the sword you linked above.
That sword you showed, if it were to have been the real authentic thing of the actual era represented, would be something that few of us could ever contemplate affording. The beautiful artistic modern made sword is priced at just over $4,000, which is actually inexpensive if it were to be compared to a similar sword of true olden day manufacture.

I think most people reading this thread will understand why I see your example as more of an "apples to oranges" comparison, rather than an "apples to apples" ;)
 
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