Civilian?

J

jwinkeler

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Mar 24, 2012
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Does anyone own or have experience with the spyderco civilian I'm looking into one purely for defense(which looks to be the only use for it) I have trained in sayoc Kali a little bit and escrima(I can't spell haha) mostly so it looks like it worldly fit my system well, thank you for your time

Joe
 
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They made a tape(s) to go with it years back, might want to check it out if you haven't already.
 
I have two, an old one from the 90s (with the rubber inserts in the handle) and a new one. They need specialized training. James Keating has an instructional video made in circa 1992, which is interesting. But as he mentions in that video, this is no replacement for actual training. This is a specialized knife and has a different "manual of arms" application than regular knives, EDC/SD issues aside. Training with a trainer knife is particularly recommended in this case, especially if you have no previous experience with curved and reverse grip blades. As Keating points out, the Civ is "an unforgiving blade" that rends rather than just cut.

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1992 (ca.) Civilian

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Current Civilian model
 
Thank you for the information I'll try and find those tapes and does anyone know if they make a trainer? I can't find one on my usual shopping sites
Joe

Btw that 90s one looks awesome
 
To the thread-starter, I'd check my local and state laws on knives, blade length, and concealed weapons before purchasing a Civilian to carry for defensive use.
 
borisosa said:
To the thread-starter, I'd check my local and state laws on knives, blade length, and concealed weapons before purchasing a Civilian to carry for defensive use.
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I should have mentioned that myself. I'm a collector not an EDC'r of this blade and moreover I live in a CCW state with no laws against this or most other knives anyway. But YMMV. Check out state legislation and local ordinances in this regard.
 
jwinkeler said:
Thank you for the information I'll try and find those tapes and does anyone know if they make a trainer? I can't find one on my usual shopping sites
Joe

Btw that 90s one looks awesome
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Keating used a trainer when sparring in the instructional, but it was a self-made (?) one, not in commercial production afaik. The most frequent problem is closing the knife given the shape of the blade which is unusual for some people. The 90s one that you praised has a blade that falls straight down when you depress the backlock lever. It cut me the first time I did it, back in the day. Some people like this looseness for flipping such knives closed, but I prefer a tighter hold on the blade after pressing the backlock. I found the video instructional here: http://alliancemartialarts.com/catalog.html. I have no association with that site, just a one-time customer, jadda jadda jadda.
 
Thank you everyone, I live in Virginia and I can't find anything on it so I assume it's legal(only blade length limits is on school property), and thank you for the link and warning on it, hopefully I'll remember that when mine arrives,
Joe
 
Irminsul said:
They need specialized training.
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They were designed for cops with NO training at all.
The design maximizes the effect of the regular, untrained "slash like hell" response.

Of course extra training helps, but is not absolutely necessary.:)
 
Irminsul said:
I have two, an old one from the 90s (with the rubber inserts in the handle) and a new one. They need specialized training. James Keating has an instructional video made in circa 1992, which is interesting. But as he mentions in that video, this is no replacement for actual training. This is a specialized knife and has a different "manual of arms" application than regular knives, EDC/SD issues aside. Training with a trainer knife is particularly recommended in this case, especially if you have no previous experience with curved and reverse grip blades. As Keating points out, the Civ is "an unforgiving blade" that rends rather than just cut.
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I'm no expert but it seems to me this blade would work better in regular forward grip, I associate the reverse grip with cutting on the pass and sticking with the point, if it's a slasher I would think forward grip would be the way to go. But then I've only done a seminar in Escrima and that was with sticks so what do I know.
 
stabman said:
They were designed for cops with NO training at all.
The design maximizes the effect of the regular, untrained "slash like hell" response.

Of course extra training helps, but is not absolutely necessary.:)
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Really? Spyderco itself says that they were approached by a U.S. federal agency for use by undercover officers in emergencies. It may have been DEA. I've often read that unofficial claim that it needs no or little training and I never bought that take, which may be a marketing line to move what for many might be an intimidatingly eccentric blade. Personally, I go with what Keating says and emphasizes about this blade: it is to be used for professionals. There is even a bit of a learning curve with this blade design, I believe. "Slash like hell" is not something I would put out there myself. I would recommend training with this and with any curved blade, but particularly with this one, which is even more curved than the pikal.
 
MassMatt said:
I'm no expert but it seems to me this blade would work better in regular forward grip, I associate the reverse grip with cutting on the pass and sticking with the point, if it's a slasher I would think forward grip would be the way to go. But then I've only done a seminar in Escrima and that was with sticks so what do I know.
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Keating explains all possible grips for this knife in his video, and their different applications. Your preference in this regard is indeed valid. This blade is more versatile than it appears at first sight.
 
Irminsul said:
"Slash like hell" is not something I would put out there myself.
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Give any untrained person a Civilian trainer (you'll have to make one yourself), and try to get in on them as they slash like hell...which is the default action of the untrained. In fact, it's what many "trained" people revert to when the adrenaline dump hits.
If you're honest with the results of how severely cut you'd be if the blade had been real, you'll get it.

Training is a fine thing, but if you read the Spyderco blurb closer, it did mention that the agency they had been approached by wanted a knife for agents who didn't have training.
The Civilian was their answer.
 
Stabman is 100% correct. It was developed for a US law enforcement agency that does not train with knives. It was designed for situations where an undercover officer cannot have a gun. It was designed for a person with no martial knife training.

It's easy use by un-trained people was why a smaller one called the Matriarch was developed for women (i.e. matriarchs) in South Africa (IIRC) where carjacking of women was a problem following the fall of apartheid.
 
What I read is this: "These plain-clothes LEOs found themselves in situations where they often could not carry a firearm but carrying a knife was not a problem. Most had no formal training in self-defense tactics or MBC but as a last resort could use a blade to protect or extricate themselves from a life-threatening situation. This was how the Civilian model came to be."

That they had no formal training in self-defense tactics, which can be an intensive and complicated, does not mean and certainly does not preclude undergoing some basic and even intermediate training with the Civilian, upon being issued one of course. :rolleyes: One automatically falls back on training and practice in times of stress. If there is no training or if the training has been with a non-hawkbill... well.... Just saying.
 
SIG said:
I'm interested to learn more about this. Can you share more info on why this is so? I'm a lefty and wish these had clips for us. Thanks.
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Well, when you fight left handed against right handed (or the other way around), it is very advantageous to position yourself on the outside of the opponent's weapon arm. The Civilian is very good for hooking the outside of that arm/hand to get to his flank.
 
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