CJ, a quick "A" or "B" answer would help me out...

Vampire Gerbil

Gone, but not forgotten. RIP Dave
Platinum Member
Joined
Sep 21, 1999
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Hiya CJ!
It's me again. This time, I'll try and be brief (just finished, couldn't be brief, sorry. Scroll down to the bold text to skip the long diatribe, if you like) and sane.

I'm an armed guard, working what amounts to a personal protection gig in Las Vegas.

Our security manual states that we are allowed to carry .38s, 9mms, 40's, and I suppose, any caliber smaller than that. Only hollowpoint or frangible rounds are allowed.
The thing is, I prefer the .45 acp, Glasers and Hydrashoks (230 gr.)

My Chief is aware of the fact that I am more familiar with small arms than all of the other guards, including himself (I'm not claiming to be an expert, but I definitely know more than the average guy) and he has advised me that as long as I choose a round that doesn't over penetrate, I am allowed to carry what ever I feel comfortable with.
I chose a Glock 21. The thing hasn't jammed on me since I bought it, the first month that it was offered to the public, and I am able to shoot fairly well with it. (I aced the two weapons qualifications necessary for me to carry it on the job)

What concerns me is the fact that since our manual doesn't allow a .45, were I forced to use the weapon, I'm worried that I may be liable for using a weapon that's "prohibited" in our manual. I've worked there for 6 months now and have told myself that since my Chief stated I can carry the .45 (in front of witnesses) I covered myself, but I would really like to see the .45 added as a choice in our manual.

The main obstacle I have is the fact that my Chief is a 20 year Navy Vet (2 tours in Vietnam, PBRs) and has developed a severe case of prejudice against the .45. He says they're clunky, inaccurate and basically, PsOS. I'm thinking that his expereince is due to the fact that he was handed WWI surplus .45's that were worn out in 1918.
(By the way, he carries a Ruger P-whatever in 9mm. So far, I have managed not to spew my opinion LOL.)

The bottom line is that the .45 is not allowed at this time out of fear that the round will over penetrate compared to a 9 or a 40. I'm unable to find a definitive answer for this, but it sure seems to me that a slower, heavier bullet will penetrate less than a faster, lighter bullet, especially if 9mm+P+'s are used.

So the A or B question is this:

Will a Federal Hydrashok 230 Grain bullet fired out of a full sized weapon penetrate further than a 9mm or a 9mm +P+?

Any other thoughts you'd have on the subject would be greatly appreciated, but I won't be insulted if you just answer A or B. (Just let me know if A is 9 or 45.. heh heh)

Thanks much!
Dave
 
Blood sucking rodent,
Bud, the way I see it, I would just ask for a special letter in your employee file stating that you have permission from the Chief and that you follow all other qualification guidelines.
I have almost never carried what I was supposed to as a sworn officer, and that was how I handled it. But of course I have always had a supportive Chief.
As far as your ammo question, there are numerous studies that indicate over penetration of the 9mm. I am sure some of our readers will be able to advise accordingly. The 40 cal. issue is a different story, I don't know how many studies have been out on it, but because there are so many various weights and bullet configurations I'm sure that it is relative.
There is however no doubt in my mind that 9mm fmj will penetrate farther than the 40/45.
 
Hiya CJ!
Thanks for the answer.

I spoke with my Chief today, explaining my concern that if I were to use my weapon in a defensive situation, an attorney for the living-challenged person's survivors might be able to gain access to our manual, and use the fact that the .45 isn't allowed, I was using some kind of "killer bullet" or something.
(Damn! I gotta learn how to type shorter sentences!)
The Chief actually LISTENED to me, and AGREED with me!!!!!!

Our manual is being re-written as I speak/type, and .45's will be allowed. No FMJ's will be aloowed in ANY caliber, and that's a good thing, too.
Still, I'm going to let him know what you said abot the penetration question, just so he can rest easy.
(Although, how he ever rests easy, knowing that I'm out there, running around with a Glock 21, Glock 26, MT SOCOM, ASP, OC and a Zippo, is beyond me!)

Thanks again, CJ!
VG
 
Vamp -

Good questions and good answer from CJ.

The civil suit will ALWAYS to the documentation / policy & procedure manual. If the chief or anyone else simply said "Okay by me" and there's nothing in writing, with his signature, in your file and PERSONAL file at the very least, it didn't happen and it doesn't count.

This is especially true when it comes to shootings.

9mm -

Hy-SHOK or GOLD DOT. Contrary to the BS out there the over-penetration issue is highly fluffed...primarily by those who prefer other calibers. I just finished such a study for my department and the FBI stats, which the standard, show NO case of someone being hit or killed due to a bullet of any caliber going through someONE and hitting someone else.

A .45 will punch a cheap apartment's wall just like a .22 just like a .380 and so on. Glass, too.

Go with state of the industry HP in LE load in 9mm and you're fine.

And I carry a .357 SIXGUN on duty...

And a BHP 9 off.

Hits count.

G
 
<b>Glock 21, Glock 26, MT SOCOM, ASP, OC and a Zippo</b>? I'm trying to envision a scenario where you'd be required to use all the items you listed.... Oh wait, here's one.

Ok, so you'll shoot him with your 21 only to realize that it was NOT a weapon pointed at you but a rather incideous looking cell phone. Just as you go to remove the cell phone and replace it with your own 26 (with the serial numbers filed off), you discover the person hasn't quite expired so, you whack him with your ASP. Then you find that the bugger has tied the cell phone to his wrist so you cut it with your SOCOM. HOWEVER, after realizing the mess you've made and the fact that you'll never get away with it you decide to burn the evidence using your zippo but you have nothing in which to start a nice fire. Aha! You remember the flammability warning on your OC can. Problem solved!

If you need anything else, just ask :)
 
Mike, I'm amazed that you said that!
Last night, virtually EVERYTHING you said happened exactly as you stated!
The only thing different was the fact that my Zippo was outta fuel and I had no means to destroy the evidence.
I ran over the whole shebang with my truck a buncha times though, so that shoulda squished stuff enough to destroy the evidence.
Oh, the guy got away though...
;)

By the way, since I don't think we know each other, and the fact that ya MIGHT be thinkin' I'm some sorta mall-ninja-wannabe, a little background.

I ride around with guys who carry large amounts of cash. We go to the crappier parts of North Las Vegas, during the graveyard shift. I've had run-ins with Crips, Hell's Angels (and their "old ladies", who are scarier, in my opinion), beligerant drunks, and the usual sortsa folks who'd hang out in crappy bars at 4 am.

If anything nasty happens, my only source of help is Las Vegas Metro PD. I have no idea what their response time would be, so I try and keep my options open. I've worked this job for 6 months and have managed to defuse every situation with my "personality". Also, as in nature, predators are aware of nature's warning signs. Between the badge, uniform, all the crap on my belt, and my utter good looks and intelligence (think "Lenny" from "Of Mice and Men", but not as smart, and 3 times as ugly) the people who I see that would normally pose a threat tend to ignore us. That works fine with me. If I got into a fight with anyone, I'd scream like a 6 year old girl and soil myself.

Off to host a pretend tea party with my dollies,
I remain,
VG
 
Sierra,
Thanks for all the info.
I hadn't heard of anyone ever being shot from a bullet that went through another person (other than in wartime) and personally, didn't worry too much about it. BUT, when the HMFICs in charge worry about it, I gotta deal with it, you understand, I'm sure.

I spoke with my Chief this morning and must have caught him in a good mood, as he told me to come up with the company's guidelines as to what ammo an officer can carry in whatever caliber he chose.

(I wonder if the make Glasers for the .454 Casul??)
;)

Nahhh... .45's gonna be the biggest.

I haven't researched anything yet, but I had mentioned to him that the HydraShok was a better choice than what they were using now. (Nyclads)

The main thing is that my butt's covered in the remote event of a shooting. All the muckity-mucks have agreed on the .45 now, so I feel a bit better about it.

Now if I can only find some of those neat-o AP rounds, in case I'm attacked by someone wearing 4 vests, I'd be set!
(That was for Mike! :p)

Thanks again!
Dave
 
Originally posted by Vampire Gerbil

By the way, since I don't think we know each other, and the fact that ya MIGHT be thinkin' I'm some sorta mall-ninja-wannabe, a little background.

:D

LOL, I had absolutely no concerns what-so-ever about your "mall ninja" status. (I love that thread!) I was just in a particularly creative mood this morning.

I am however curious as to how your employer gets around the health code issues surrounding the hiring of "Gerbils", not to mention one's with funny accents and capes.
 
Regarding the Zippo: My first cousin, short, chubby, fortish, was gassing up his car at a convenience station when a car full of gang-banger types pulled up beside him and the driver said, "hey, boy, put some gas in this car." He replied, "yes, sir!", stuck the nozzle in the driver's window and pulled out his lighter. He said that they departed rather quickly.
 
Hiya Mike!

I'm glad that your post was made in the non-ball-busting manner I had hoped for.
I'm sorta paranoid about this Security thing, since there's such a bunch of wannabes and Mall Ninjas out there. I'd hate to be put into their category. Luckily, we have a professional crew. All ex-military, some using this as a stepping stone to law enforcement, etc.

As for the health issue, the person who had interviewed me did express some concern over my undead rodent status, but I quickly began shrieking about discrimination and sexual harrassment.
(I had threatened to say that he had touched me inappropriately during the interview)
Anyhow, that's how I got the job.
I have to wear the cape under my vest though... at least for now.
Been there for 6 months and I'm already the #2 guy in security.
Once I am HMFIC, the cape shall be displayed proudly!!!
;)

By the way, if your brother ever decides to move to Las Vegas, tell him to look me up.
Sounds like he'd be PERFECT for our company!!
:D

VG
 
Do like me VG, glue on about 7 dozen loaded mouse traps to your cape. Ain't nobody gonna mess wid ya then.

Nature has its little ways of saying "Don't Touch"....... cats arch their backs, dogs lay their ears back, puffer fish puff up, Velitrius dons a rat-trap-laden trench coat, simple stuff really.
 
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