clarification/questions on the "sharpie trick"

[Citizen Snips]

I'm a beginner who is still learning the basics of knife sharpening and had a couple questions about the sharpie trick I was hoping someone could answer:

1. I should color the bevel, the shoulder (area just above the bevel), and the actual knife edge itself, correct?

2. If my swipes on the Sharpmaker remove all the sharpie from the bevel AND the edge, and I repeat this stroke over and over (as in at least 100 times) but I'm not forming a burr, what am I doing wrong? What could be preventing the burr from forming in this case? I thought a burr was formed when one side of the edge meets the other. If I'm grinding all the marker off the bevel and the edge, that means I've reached the other side.

 

[Kbrasmodeler]

Just grinding all of the marker off of the bevel and the edge does not necessarily mean you have reached the other side. It just means you have the angle set the same as the existing bevel. Picture a "V" with the bottom cut off (\_/) You can see how taking all the marker off will not create a burr. I know it is frustrating, but it just means you have to keep going. Also, don't expect to be done at a prescribed number of swipes. The only thing counting is good for is keeping your bevels even on both sides. Keep at it, and you will get it sharp.

 

[Citizen Snips]

Thanks for the clarification, but to use your example with the \_/, if I color the edge of the knife with a marker, that means the entire _ section is coated in marker. If I then take a swipe on the sharpmaker and all the marker off the _ section is gone, doesn't that mean the _ section would have to be so narrow that the two bevels have met? Otherwise how else would the stone be able to remove marker from the entire _ section?

I'm just trying to understand how this works.

 

[Kbrasmodeler]

In my experience, the only reliable way to know you have reached an apex with the edge (other than using high magnification) is by the formation of a burr. Going by sight alone, and assuming all of the marker is gone, could leave a very thin bit still marked, and yet not visible. To clarify my previous explanation, you typically only need to color the edge bevel with the marker, so as to confirm angles. I assumed you were only marking the sides of the V. However, I would not recommend using the presence or lack of marker to confirm having reached an apex. Feel for the burr. Once you have worked one side long enough to feel a burr along the entire edge, switch to the other side and repeat the process. Then move to the next higher grit abrasive you have, and do it again. It is okay, when reprofiling and using courser grits, to use more pressure, but as you progress to finer grits, lighten the pressure. Once the edge is apexed with the courser grits, the process will speed up. The burr will also get smaller with finer grits and lighter pressure. Personally, I then use a loaded strop to remove the burr. Once you get the scary edge, all your effort will be worth it.

 

[KennyB]

Thanks for the clarification, but to use your example with the \_/, if I color the edge of the knife with a marker, that means the entire _ section is coated in marker. If I then take a swipe on the sharpmaker and all the marker off the _ section is gone, doesn't that mean the _ section would have to be so narrow that the two bevels have met? Otherwise how else would the stone be able to remove marker from the entire _ section?

I'm just trying to understand how this works.

The the ink will abrade much more readily than the steel will, and depending on if you're using a dry stone and what kind of swarf you're creating, the debris from sharpening can smudge off marker near the edge. Also, with free-hand sharpening, there's always going to be a slight variance. So a lot of the times your hand will waver very minutely, enough to wear off the ink on the edge, but not really enough to bring the steel at the apex together.

It's just a good visual indicator of where you're making contact on the bevel with the stone, but it isn't really supposed to be an indicator of progress. Also, you can save on marker and gunky buildup by just making single lines all the way down the blade, and looking at the pattern of removal in just a few lines rather than paint the whole edge.

 

[HeavyHanded]

Just grinding all of the marker off of the bevel and the edge does not necessarily mean you have reached the other side. It just means you have the angle set the same as the existing bevel. Picture a "V" with the bottom cut off (\_/) You can see how taking all the marker off will not create a burr. I know it is frustrating, but it just means you have to keep going. Also, don't expect to be done at a prescribed number of swipes. The only thing counting is good for is keeping your bevels even on both sides. Keep at it, and you will get it sharp.

Good way to illustrate the explanation. It also shows how one could actually create a visible burr but not make it to the apex yet - spent metal builds up at the meeting point of the bevel and the "flat" apex. One of the reasons I prefer to raise a burr on one side and then flip it to do the same on the other side. Only if I'm fixing a really beatup edge or a poor factory grind will I swap sides with any frequency at the initial grinding phase. Once I achieve burr, flip and achieve burr, I'll start to flip it over more regularly.
I don't own one, but the Sharpmaker seems like it would lend itself to single passes on opposite sides. Nothing wrong with that but its a bit less foolproof than raising and flipping one side at a time.

 

[Citizen Snips]

Good way to illustrate the explanation. It also shows how one could actually create a visible burr but not make it to the apex yet - spent metal builds up at the meeting point of the bevel and the "flat" apex. One of the reasons I prefer to raise a burr on one side and then flip it to do the same on the other side. Only if I'm fixing a really beatup edge or a poor factory grind will I swap sides with any frequency at the initial grinding phase. Once I achieve burr, flip and achieve burr, I'll start to flip it over more regularly.
I don't own one, but the Sharpmaker seems like it would lend itself to single passes on opposite sides. Nothing wrong with that but its a bit less foolproof than raising and flipping one side at a time.

Even if you were trying to raise a burr on one side, wouldn't you want to periodically switch to the other side for awhile to keep the bevels relatively even? I guess that's really just an aesthetic consideration.

 

[HeavyHanded]

Even if you were trying to raise a burr on one side, wouldn't you want to periodically switch to the other side for awhile to keep the bevels relatively even? I guess that's really just an aesthetic consideration.

Certainly, but that's (evenness of bevels) something that can be seen and worked on anyway, independent of the burr. Its a visual concern, correct it based on visual inspection. Also, you can count strokes and do a rough approximate on the other side. Here's the rub - if the edge already has even bevels then its very easy to grind a new edge to the apex. Only if I see that I've got a real uneven bevel or a big ding to be fixed will I switch sides frequently at the initial grind phase - just to keep the burr small in the places where I've already ground it to the peak while waiting for the rest of the blade to catch up (assuming these areas are so close that I can't isolate the problem spots and just grind them down separately). As I mentioned - nothing wrong with a lot of alternating passes, but it seems to slow the work down and increases the odds of not grinding completely to the apex or getting there and not realizing it.

When I'm working on a knife that has clean established bevels, I'll grind till I start to see a burr anywhere along the edge, then I'll start zeroing in on the areas where it hasn't formed yet. Next I'll flip it over and push the burr back to other side - in the process this should grind all the way to the apex on the opposite side. Reduce number of strokes to what is required to flip the burr - this number should decrease as the burr gets repeatedly flipped, shrunk, and fragmented eventually removed by careful stone work, dragging across wood, cork, a light stropping with the material of your choice etc. Finish with finer stones or strop as desired. Since an initial burr will usually pop up within twenty strokes or less, uneven bevels aren't really a concern. Counting strokes, grinding one side first, alternating strokes every pass - these things all take a back seat to careful visual and tactile inspection. Just do what needs to be done. A 10 x loupe and good lighting are a real help though not necessary.

If you are removing all trace of the Sharpie, then you very well might have ground clean to the apex - presence of the burr is a more reliable indicator.

 

[Citizen Snips]

Here's a couple photos of the knife. I've been sharpening 1 side exclusively using the Sharpmaker diamond rods, and then later switching to 120 grit aluminum oxide sandpaper tied to the Sharpmaker fine stones because the diamond stones didn't seem to be working fast enough.

Here's the side I've been grinding:

Here's the side I haven't touched yet:

As you can see, the side I have been grinding has a much taller bevel than the side I haven't been grinding. I would estimate I have used hundreds of strokes on the Sharpmaker with the ground side, yet I haven't been able to detect a burr yet. This knife was VERY dull when I started. Should I just keep at it on the same side I've been working on until I form a burr, even though the bevels are so uneven now?

 

[HeavyHanded]

Here's a couple photos of the knife. I've been sharpening 1 side exclusively using the Sharpmaker diamond rods, and then later switching to 120 grit aluminum oxide sandpaper tied to the Sharpmaker fine stones because the diamond stones didn't seem to be working fast enough.

Here's the side I've been grinding:

Here's the side I haven't touched yet:

As you can see, the side I have been grinding has a much taller bevel than the side I haven't been grinding. I would estimate I have used hundreds of strokes on the Sharpmaker with the ground side, yet I haven't been able to detect a burr yet. This knife was VERY dull when I started. Should I just keep at it on the same side I've been working on until I form a burr, even though the bevels are so uneven now?

I'd switch sides at this point just to break up the tedium. It looks like you're changing the inclusive bevel by a good margin, this is going to take a few - be patient. Always verify your assumptions/progress with a close inspection - some magnification would be a real help, however - good overhead lighting and slowly tilt the edge back and forth, both sides, edge up and edge down. On the opposite side from what you've been grinding you're looking for a slight halo off the edge that will signify a burr. You should also be able to feel it. On the side you are grinding, you want to see one clean plane of reflection from shoulder to apex. Any shift in how the light comes back near the apex means you still have some work to do. If the light stops nice and clean at the apex, your work is done on that side for now. The combination of very dull and a change in bevel angle can make for a handful of long sessions.

What steel is the patient made from?

 

[Citizen Snips]

I'd switch sides at this point just to break up the tedium. It looks like you're changing the inclusive bevel by a good margin, this is going to take a few - be patient. Always verify your assumptions/progress with a close inspection - some magnification would be a real help, however - good overhead lighting and slowly tilt the edge back and forth, both sides, edge up and edge down. On the opposite side from what you've been grinding you're looking for a slight halo off the edge that will signify a burr. You should also be able to feel it. On the side you are grinding, you want to see one clean plane of reflection from shoulder to apex. Any shift in how the light comes back near the apex means you still have some work to do. If the light stops nice and clean at the apex, your work is done on that side for now. The combination of very dull and a change in bevel angle can make for a handful of long sessions.

What steel is the patient made from?

I was able to raise a burr on my paring knife, so I'm pretty sure I know how to see and feel one, and I'm not seeing or feeling one on this knife yet. I'll have to keep grinding on that same side I suspect.

Regarding the "clean plane of reflection", would I not be seeing that due to the deep scratches I am putting in the bevel with the diamond stones and sandpaper? Or were you referring to something else? You remove scratches by using a lighter grit, correct?

I have no idea what steel this is made from. Is there any way to tell if there are no markings of any kind on the blade?

 

[Magnaminous_G]

get a 10X or 15X loupe and look at that edge again, you will see what's going on. Most likely, the edge needs more sharpening. The Sharpmaker is best for maintaining an edge, not putting a new edge on a very dull knife because it takes too long... unless you have the diamond rods, which I think should have come with the kit. It is the single best purchase you will ever make if you are a Sharpmaker owner. With light strokes, the diamond rods cut through steel and bring a burr up much, much, much faster than the standard ceramic rods they give you.

 

[THG]

If you sharpen by hand, there's no way that your bevels are going to be perfectly flat planes that come to an apex. For that reason, I mark the bevels very close to the edge and not all the way up to the shoulders.

And as Kbrasmodeler said, a \_/ situation would cause it to look like you are done if you finish removing the sharpie. Realize, though, that the sharpie is going to come off in a few passes of the stone, since it is only a "coating" on the metal. You can even scratch it off with your finger, but that doesn't mean that you have ground the bevel to the edge.

Also, you may think that you have a \/, but in fact, the deformation on the very apex that is the edge is there causing somewhat dull spots. There is no way that you will be able to detect these with sharpie marker using your eyes, so it might be a little bit deceptive in that case.

 

[HeavyHanded]

I was able to raise a burr on my paring knife, so I'm pretty sure I know how to see and feel one, and I'm not seeing or feeling one on this knife yet. I'll have to keep grinding on that same side I suspect.

Regarding the "clean plane of reflection", would I not be seeing that due to the deep scratches I am putting in the bevel with the diamond stones and sandpaper? Or were you referring to something else? You remove scratches by using a lighter grit, correct?

The knife originally had an edge ground on one more or less flat plane. You are now coming in at a steeper angle, material will be removed from the shoulder first, then your newly ground bevel will spread out until it goes further up the back bevel, and further down the original factory(?) primary bevel. As this gets closer to overtaking the previous bevel, there will be two distinct planes visible, even accounting for some human error. With some good overhead lighting hold the blade in front of you, blade parallel to the floor, edge facing toward you. Now slowly rock the blade back and forth. You should be able to see the light play off of the different planes on the edge. If the light stops dead at the outside edge of your apex, you're probably done with that side. Considering you haven't detected a burr on the opposite side yet, you'll likely see a thin band of light at the the apex that signifies a second plane of reflectance - the last remnant of your original bevel. If you don't, then you may very well have gotten there and the steel you're working with just isn't going to show much of a burr with the tools and technique you're using (that would be a good thing).

Keep looking for the burr on the opposite bevel. And another thing, if you're reapplying the Sharpie frequently it can obscure a small burr should the marker cover both sides of the apex. A little rubbing alcohol or similar will wash it clean for a better look.

I have no idea what steel this is made from. Is there any way to tell if there are no markings of any kind on the blade?

Do a search on one of the larger online retail knife outlets and see if you can get some detailed info. No markings, I generally assume its carbon steel especially if there's any patina or rust.

 

[Citizen Snips]

OK, let me confirm something else. Here is the unworked side of a kitchen slicer after the opposite side has had 200 passes over the Sharpmaker diamond stone corners:

Is that thin, light colored region at the bottom of the bevel the burr?

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

OK, let me confirm something else. Here is the unworked side of a kitchen slicer after the opposite side has had 200 passes over the Sharpmaker diamond stone corners:

Is that thin, light colored region at the bottom of the bevel the burr?

Certainly looks like it could be. If so, one that visible should be easy to feel also, with your thumbnail. Slide the edge of your thumbnail down the side of the bevel, towards the edge. If it's a burr, your nail should stop cold against it, instead of sliding off the edge. You should also be able to use that (pictured) side of the bevel to scrape material from your thumbnail, with that side of the bevel against it, IF it's a burr. Do this test along the full length of the edge, to see if the burr is complete.

 

[Citizen Snips]

In my experience, the only reliable way to know you have reached an apex with the edge (other than using high magnification) is by the formation of a burr. Going by sight alone, and assuming all of the marker is gone, could leave a very thin bit still marked, and yet not visible. To clarify my previous explanation, you typically only need to color the edge bevel with the marker, so as to confirm angles. I assumed you were only marking the sides of the V. However, I would not recommend using the presence or lack of marker to confirm having reached an apex. Feel for the burr. Once you have worked one side long enough to feel a burr along the entire edge, switch to the other side and repeat the process. Then move to the next higher grit abrasive you have, and do it again. It is okay, when reprofiling and using courser grits, to use more pressure, but as you progress to finer grits, lighten the pressure. Once the edge is apexed with the courser grits, the process will speed up. The burr will also get smaller with finer grits and lighter pressure. Personally, I then use a loaded strop to remove the burr. Once you get the scary edge, all your effort will be worth it.

I have been able to get a burr by using the diamond stones, and I have been able to get another burr by using the coarse stones after the diamond stones. Are you saying I should then switch to the fine stones and keep using them until I get another burr, and then switch to the ultra fine stones and use them until I get yet another burr? I've never been able to get a burr using the fine stones. Either that or I didn't sharpen long enough with them or the burr is too subtle to detect. I don't actually own the ultra fine stones yet.

Can a burr created from the fine or ultra fine stones be felt with your thumb just like one from the diamond or coarse stones?

 

[Citizen Snips]

Certainly, but that's (evenness of bevels) something that can be seen and worked on anyway, independent of the burr. Its a visual concern, correct it based on visual inspection. Also, you can count strokes and do a rough approximate on the other side. Here's the rub - if the edge already has even bevels then its very easy to grind a new edge to the apex. Only if I see that I've got a real uneven bevel or a big ding to be fixed will I switch sides frequently at the initial grind phase - just to keep the burr small in the places where I've already ground it to the peak while waiting for the rest of the blade to catch up (assuming these areas are so close that I can't isolate the problem spots and just grind them down separately).

I'd switch sides at this point just to break up the tedium. It looks like you're changing the inclusive bevel by a good margin, this is going to take a few - be patient.

As you can see from my photos above, I managed to raise/increase the height of the bevel on one side through my sharpening, relative to the height of the bevel on the other side. Based on the removal pattern of my sharpie, I believe I was hitting the knife at its original angle. If I was hitting high on the blade's shoulder, then the sharpie would be removed from above the existing bevel first, and then eventually from the existing bevel once the new ground bevel reached the existing one.

Is it possible to widen the bevel as I did yet keep the inclusive angle the same, or must I have been mistaken about where the sharpie was being removed from?

 

[HeavyHanded]

As you can see from my photos above, I managed to raise/increase the height of the bevel on one side through my sharpening, relative to the height of the bevel on the other side. Based on the removal pattern of my sharpie, I believe I was hitting the knife at its original angle. If I was hitting high on the blade's shoulder, then the sharpie would be removed from above the existing bevel first, and then eventually from the existing bevel once the new ground bevel reached the existing one.

Is it possible to widen the bevel as I did yet keep the inclusive angle the same, or must I have been mistaken about where the sharpie was being removed from?

Absolutely possible to widen the bevel without changing the angle, but the bevel will be getting very lopsided.