I'm currently building my own Katana and was asked by the person making it what type of Hamon I want. I was shown some pics and have no clue what the difference is between a Clay-Tempered and a non Clay-Tempered blade is. Does having it Clay-Tempered strengthen or reduce the blade durability? Or is it strictly an aesthetic? My biggest concern is to know if it reduces the structural integrity of the blade or if it increases it, because I plan on using it (Katana) often for both training and recreational use. Thanks for your insight!
-
The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
Price is $300 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.
Clay-Tempered Hamon Question
- Thread starter KageKaiju
- Start date
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2014
- Messages
- 854
The Harmon is a thing of beauty IMHO. And any katana that holds true to the era should have one. But it is like having a diamond for the swords edge. If built of quality materials, properly heat treated, and used by experienced hands. You might never have a problem with the sword. Though high end clay tempered swords, have a slightly higher failure rate. Compared to Through hardened katanas. Even when everything is done right, by the same sword maker. You will also pay a high price for a clay tempered sword as well.
I suggest for you and any beginner, a Through Hardened katana. I most likely would have destroyed my sword, after hitting concrete. If i had gone with the clay tempered version I wanted.TH katanas are usually stronger, and cheaper. Not to mention it way easier to do TH, if you plan on doing the heat treat. And once you're very proficient using it. look into getting or making, a clay tempered sword.
I suggest for you and any beginner, a Through Hardened katana. I most likely would have destroyed my sword, after hitting concrete. If i had gone with the clay tempered version I wanted.TH katanas are usually stronger, and cheaper. Not to mention it way easier to do TH, if you plan on doing the heat treat. And once you're very proficient using it. look into getting or making, a clay tempered sword.
Ah thanks a bunch! Looks like I won't go with the clay-tempering then, just gotta decide on Tamahagane or 1095 carbon steel (with folded steel). Kinda torn between wanting it done the traditional way, but also wanting it to last.
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2015
- Messages
- 56
...is basically a way for the blade to hold together in case of severe chipping, which was often the case with traditional nihonto- the water quench left the blade hard but very brittle, and limiting the hardened portion to between a quarter and a third the blade width helped prevent crack propagation. The only problem with this arrangement is that the blade steel overall was not very elastic- it would tend to get bent in cutting especially if a cut was slightly off.
Nowadays with modern steels there are lots of ways to have a more even temper that is less likely to warp but still cuts well, without resorting to edge-quenching- which, incidentally, was done with a number of blades world-wide though not always with clay. However, the hamon does remain one of the distinguishing features of the Japanese-style blade- more so, in my opinion, than the steel grain- and there's really no good reason to fold modern alloys except for appearance. The steel if anything will be no stronger in the folded blade than a straight 1075 or 1084 non-folded alloy and if anything will be likely to be weaker- all it takes is a single bad weld.
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2015
- Messages
- 56
...that if you're primarily interested in training/recreational use, there is no need to use tamahagane. It's not all that fantastic material in terms of durability- it is traditional, but as you're not looking for a high-end collectible you don't want to go with something you are going to get scratched and possibly damaged.
Ah I see, thank for the insight! I'll keep that all in mind, think I should do a little more research before fully committing to a set 'design'.
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2014
- Messages
- 854
I'm glad Althesmith said it, I would have felt like I was smashing your dreams lol. If I had know you were looking at a clayed, folded katana made of tamahagane. My suggestion would have been TH 1095 mono steel. Or if you really had to pick 1 thing. A clay tempered 1095 mono steel blade. The Hada (wood grain) wouldn't look real anyways, unless it was folded at least 14* or more. And if it's not Japanese Tamahagane, it's not worth the price.
My katana is a TH spring steel katana. Amazing sword for the under 300 mark. The destruction test I watched on it, were astounding.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2014
- Messages
- 32
I am a real enthusiast of these katana swords which have their roots in the state of China.
The thing I like about these antique looking swords is that they are not like the regular swords and their drop pint blade is the one I like the most.
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2015
- Messages
- 56
...the only time that Japanese swords exhibited a strong "grain" pattern was after their use in wars decreased and they became more status symbol in the Edo period, and more elaborate polishing techniques evolved. Until then essentially the polisher removed nicks and trued up the lines and sharpened the blades, leaving a much lower surface finish.
You could still see "grain" if there were numerous welding flaws, but because this represented a weakness, you really didn't want to in your own sword...
I was lying in bed last night thinking about that. I've heard many people compliment and say how Cheness Cutlery's 9260 Spring Steel line is amazing, so I'm thinking about getting the blade made out of that material. Sure, prices are going to add up quickly since I'll have to buy the Katana I want first for the design (wolf saya, tsuba, menuki etc) and have individual aspects of it customized by different people. It'll be a long, slow process but hey slow and steady wins the race right? I'm just hoping Cheness is willing to simply switch out the blade, instead of me having to actually buy a full Katana from them. Might just be something I have to talk with them about.
Kohai999
Second Degree Cutter
- Joined
- Jul 15, 2003
- Messages
- 12,554
I recommend that you buy one of the Raptor series from CAS Iberia.
Pick one that appeals to you, they were designed by an expert (James Williams) to stand up to hard cutting, and a fair amount of abuse. They are constructed fairly robustly and have good balance.
No insult intended, but you don't know ANYTHING about Nihonto based upon your comments and the Raptor series is EXCELLENT for beginners to have a "real" sword while giving an opportunity to figure out what they do and don't like.
Best Regards,
STeven Garsson
None taken, I know I'm a noob at this kind of stuff. I just don't want to buy one Katana after another; simply one (the spiritual philosophy reasoning there). That is why I'm getting as much info as I possibly can before I make any decisions. I've never heard of CAS Iberia, so I'll give them a look too. Thanks for the info!
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2008
- Messages
- 10,188
There is a school of thought that says a through hardened sword will break before a clay tempered blade too. The clay backed blade will have more flexibility, having a softer spine.
Ah so having a clay-tempered Hamon is actually a good thing? I read that having a folded blade is better than a monosteel one for Katanas, for that very reason. I could be wrong, like I said I'm still researching and learning.
Kohai999
Second Degree Cutter
- Joined
- Jul 15, 2003
- Messages
- 12,554
CAS Iberia/CAS Hanwei were the first to enter the Chitana arena around 2000.
From an admiration of aesthetic aspect, hamon is usually going to be superior than through tempered, as forge folded will look better than monosteel. If you just want to look at the blade, a forge folded katana with hamon is lovely. If you want to cut with it, and are a total noob, you are best with something like the Raptor, and with education from someone who actually knows what they are doing. Other than that, I cannot make any recommendations.
Of course.....that is a fact...but....
For a noob....generally speaking, it has been true that the Chitana are on the softer side.....noobs bend blades and it is hard to bend them back straight unless they are REALLY soft.
James has massive experience with noob cutting and with Dalian Forge.....doubtful that the Raptor blades will break.
Regardless, contacting hard surfaces(glass, metal, concrete, stone.....) with either a through tempered blade or a differentially hardened blade usually results in edge chipping which IS a problem, because that chip is a stress riser, and if pushed too hard, the sword will likely break at the the chip. That is where the differential hardening comes into play. The break will usually stop at the soft edge of the hamon.
Best Regards,
STeven Garsson
Last edited:
I looked at some vids on the Raptor series and was pleasantly surprised by both the durability and edge retention they held. They're made out of 9260 spring steel, I believe though I could be mistaken, and after seeing the stress tests the blades were put through I honestly do love that material for both beginner and expert reasons. A great metal that'll last a long time, provided it's taken care of properly. My question is, since it's monosteel you can't get a Blood Groove and/or Hamon incorporated? I understand the Hamon is formed through differential hardening, so I believe a monosteel isn't subjugated to that process. Still researching, but your info has been VERY helpful and I'm very grateful!
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2014
- Messages
- 854
And it's a school of I wouldn't argue with, except. A first time buyer is usually not going to get a great company. (most shop with eyes, not brains)Who has an excellent blacksmith. Who is passionate and earnest about his work. Who would be more than willing to go out of his way, to fix a failure though normal parameters.
I Spent months looking for the best, for the best price. (Not to mention the years of casual looking. Mainly because I don't trust much of anything online sadly.) the Clay tempered T-10 wasn't available at the time. Needless to say I went with the runner up. The one I viewed all the destruction test on. Fit my stature, though I hate bo.-hi. And my middle of the road 9260 TH katana. Survived a meeting with an old concrete bird bath. With minimal damage, even though I used enough force to go through a full and heafty pumpkin. Me = TRUE BEGINNER
Beginner will mess up period. So its better to lose $300 on a beater, than $600+ on your Mona Lisa. IMHO.
Last edited:
Kohai999
Second Degree Cutter
- Joined
- Jul 15, 2003
- Messages
- 12,554
You could conceivably get the blade tempered to have a hamon.....it would be very expensive, and a waste of time. The Raptor Series is designed like it is for a reason. You don't want a full bo hi(you incorrectly called it a blood groove).....that is for lightness, but it comes at the cost of making the sword slightly weaker, and susceptible to bending a might easier.
Here is a link to a 5160 Raptor with a partial bo hi:
http://casiberia.com/product/raptor-katana-unokubi-zukuri/sh2415
I prefer this one, it is longer, has the long point (o-kissaki) and is generally a badass blade....however....unless you are very strong, for a beginner, it is much too heavy for you.
http://casiberia.com/product/raptor-katana-nambokucho-zukuri/sh2416
Good luck.
Best Regards,
STeven Garsson
Awesome! Sorry about the Blood Groove thing, I know it's not for actual blood-letting I just couldn't remember the name of it. Thanks for the links! that was a tremendous help! I think the longer one will peak my interest more, since I do prefer more reach over having to get closer to your target (though too much reach is worse, I know). I just finished reading an article comparing 5160 vs 9260 and it came down to how well they're tempered, and how 5160 is a bit stronger while 9260 is a bit tougher (more ductile) but regardless they're both pretty much the same and are perfect for blade material. Though I'm thinking about taking your advice and getting one of the Raptors for starters, to get a feel for the performance and to train properly before getting my custom one (so as not to shatter it). Again, though, thanks a lot for your time and patience!
Kohai999
Second Degree Cutter
- Joined
- Jul 15, 2003
- Messages
- 12,554
I don't read a lot of articles on swords anymore, I read books......so am not sure what article you read. What I do know is that occasionally ALL sword manufacturers let out a lemon from time to time, but CAS Hanwei has gotten very good at making an affordable, quality product.
If you can bench press 200 lbs 3 sets of 10, or curl 50 lb dumbells 3 sets of 10, you should be ok as a beginner with the larger Raptor, otherwise, you are likely to suffer fatigue while playing around and either hit the ground or a rock with it, or worse, lose control and send it sailing. Either one would be a disaster.
However, it is your money, time and choice.
Good luck.
Best Regards,
STeven Garsson