Clip Point History

Pinemoon

Pinemoon

Joined
Mar 25, 2005
Messages
1,644
I have been reading up on Bowie knife history lately and watching some associated YouTube videos.
Knife history is fascinating. It's a segment of Traditionals that really speaks to me.

I have always thought a "clip point" blade got its name from the fact that it looks like the point along the spine got clipped by a pair of scissors. A very logical assumption.

Clip Point by D P, on Flickr

Well, last night I'm watching YouTube and a man from The Butterfield & Butterfield Auction House in San Francisco states otherwise. Greg Barton, the one-time Arms and Armor Consultant, says the clip point blade on Bowies of the early 1800s comes from the similar profile of the famed "clipper ships" of that era... What ??

What say you blade historians?
Is this an American interpretation?
In my brief researching I have learned that the clip point profile is much older than America.
The Spanish, for example have used it for centuries. I love the clip point on my traditional navaja.

IMG_20190514_47848 by D P, on Flickr


At any rate the video is here (from the 1980s or '90s I'd say).
At 3:00, the man speaks specifically on the clipper ship reference.


 
Wikipedia and I agree with your first assumption: it's about the blade being clipped. I can't find a reference right now, but know I've seen blades described as "clipped." I've never seen one described as a "clipper," and never have seen any reference to ships.
 
Naming a blade style that has been in use for hundreds of years, after a ships bow that may or may not have existed until many years later makes no sense.
Is the bow of a "clipper ship" all that different from those of vessels that preceded it? Not in my opinion.

Then again, naming a blade profile after a ships bow makes no logical sense either ...
 
Clipper ships bows were indeed very different from the cargo ships that had gone before. But, since the clipped blade is far, far older his assertion makes no sense. I believe in early metal working to take a chisel and hammer and lop off a bit of steel from a piece was termed clipping.
 
Yeah, I was puzzled by this man's comments as well.
The only thing that has me giving it any credence is the gentleman supossedly appears as an authority on the topic of "Arms and Armor."
I guess determining when (and where) "clip point" came in general use would be a helpful determining factor.


Mayonardo said:
I believe in early metal working to take a chisel and hammer and lop off a bit of steel from a piece was termed clipping.
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That is interesting.
 
That's a classic example of someone who isn't an expert in a field making leaps and assumptions that sound cool and like they might make sense. That kind of thing happens a lot.

EDIT: the more I watch of that video the more (mostly comical) mistakes I hear

It's because the blade is clipped. The clip point has been around since knives were forged from metal. I recently saw a folding clip point from the Roman Empire. The Saxons were using "brokeback" knives, versions of Seaxs, that were basically clip points (slightly less belly than the typical modern clip point) also well before any such ship existed.
 
Jack Black said:
You're all right, and the auction bloke is talking rubbish! :rolleyes: I'd go and dig out a reference book, but I've only just flopped on the sofa! :D
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Thank you.
Someone I was hoping to hear from :thumbsup:

If you find that reference book, I'd be curious to hear more on some history.
Thanks
 
TheChunk91 said:
Jack, I didn't figure you for a layabout! :p:D
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My New Year's resolution is to become a wastrel! :D

waynorth said:
Hope you have a nice nap, Jack!:)
I look forward to your opinion!!:cool:
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Thanks Charlie, I'm afraid I daren't fall asleep, got too much to do, but after being on my feet all day, I'm glad of a sit down :) I may have exaggerated the flopping! :D

Pinemoon said:
Thank you.
Someone I was hoping to hear from :thumbsup:

If you find that reference book, I'd be curious to hear more on some history.
Thanks
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Thank you, Simon Moore. Charlie has a copy too ;) As has already been said, clipped points are almost as old as the hills :thumbsup:
 
Cutlery for the Table: A History of British Table and Pocket Cutlery by Simon Moore is the best book I've read on cutlery history, and very fairly priced on the big river site I see ;) (I'm really reluctant to get up off this sofa! :D)
 
Moore's book is over 300 pages long, beautifully illustrated, and intricately detailed. He shows examples of knives I think we'd today call clip points dating back to the Bronze Age. Later there's knives of the Scaramsax type of course, and the Medieval Chaffer knife. Then there are folding knives, like these early Sheffield Barlows from the late 1700s. Not as common throughout history as one might suppose, but with an old lineage.

5gnXshe.jpg


Here's a reproduction Chaffer knife, used for the removing the top crust of a loaf of bread to serve the King, prior to the cutting of his meat, with a different knife or knives of course. The whole thing was quite an elaborate procedure.

zvp82mi.jpg
 
Thank you Jack,
I hope you are refreshed a bit from the couch :)
I wonder if it's possible to learn when the term clip point appeared, and if it was in English or borrowed from another language ?
Does anyone have an OED ? Oxford English Dictionary? This will give some clues to etymology.
 
Pinemoon said:
Thank you Jack,
I hope you are refreshed a bit from the couch :)
I wonder if it's possible to learn when the term clip point appeared, and if it was in English or borrowed from another language ?
Does anyone have an OED ? Oxford English Dictionary? This will give some clues to etymology.
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I have one (doesn't everyone?), but I'm not at home. Could look it up later unless someone beats me to it.
 
Prester John said:
I have one (doesn't everyone?), but I'm not at home. Could look it up later unless someone beats me to it.
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The OED is much more thorough that a regular dictionary and often comprises several volumes. Usually not on a typical home bookshelf,
I keep meaning to get an online subscription.
 
Pinemoon said:
The OED is much more thorough that a regular dictionary and often comprises several volumes. Usually not on a typical home bookshelf,
I keep meaning to get an online subscription.
Click to expand...
Best dictionary around. Ten volumes. I got the two-volume compact edition many years ago at a good price. It is the some content as the ten-volume set, but they print four pages to a page on large thin paper. Comes with a magnifying glass!
 
This reminds me of the silly explanation for a common vulgarity used probably world wide.. about English bowmen having their index finger being cut off by the enemy, so they could not pull their yew longbows.. so the bowmen would raise their remaining middle finger in defiance showing they could still "pluck yew".... :rolleyes: which, of course was bastardized over time, to become the commonly used vulgarity.

Still makes me laugh out loud.... :D
 
Jack Black said:
Cutlery for the Table: A History of British Table and Pocket Cutlery by Simon Moore is the best book I've read on cutlery history, and very fairly priced on the big river site I see ;) (I'm really reluctant to get up off this sofa! :D)
Click to expand...

Thanks for the heads up
 
Prester John said:
Best dictionary around. Ten volumes. I got the two-volume compact edition many years ago at a good price. It is the some content as the ten-volume set, but they print four pages to a page on large thin paper. Comes with a magnifying glass!
Click to expand...
Ahhh so you are aware!
Very good :thumbsup:
I anxiously await what you might find. I typically go to my local library to use the OED. A fascinating book.
I wonder if clip point is even in there, however. I hope so.
It might be hyphenated....
 
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