Cold and Kydex (TOPS and Busse)

Cliff Stamp

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From time to time the subject of leather vs kydex comes up and one of the advantages of leather that is often mentioned is that it will not get brittle in cold temperatures whereas kydex will. I have also heard direct cases of kydex failures, some have been described on the forums before :


http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88614

I have worn kydex sheaths for awhile, sometimes in cold temperatures and sometimes they had seen impacts, but never the combination of the two. Anyway, the weekend past I set out to see just how brittle kydex does get.

I first spent some time tossing a Steel Eagle and a #7 Busse Combat Basic off of the front step and onto the driveway (crushed stone). The temp was about -2 . The blades were in the sheaths and were thrown out with no specific pattern and landed about 15 feet from the step. I threw them about a dozen times. There were multiple impacts on all of the surface of the sheaths including straight down on the bottom. The blades were held securely the whole time with no problems. After the throwing there were no cracks and the kydex was just scuffed up.

As it is fairly warm around here now (-5 to 0) I had to simulate cold weather by placing the two blades in the freezer overnight. The next day I repeated the above. On the third throw the Steel Eagle's kydex sheath suffered a significant fracture. A crack ran right across the bottom of the belt loop. On the sixth throw the belt loop came right off. After the 12'th throw the sheath had multiple cracks. There was one 3" starting at the top of the front edge and another starting at the bottom of the front face which crossed over and ran up the full length of the back. The Busse sheath suffered no cracks, it just got scuffed up more.

Since the tops blade is a fair bit heavier than the Busse, I decided to stress the Busse a bit heavier to see if the sheath was as durable under similar impacts. I then stood in the driveway and just tossed the blade directly up in the air. The blade went about 10' or so. I did this about 6 times and it the sheath suffered no failures as a result. I think one of the reasons that it could be more impact resistant is that it will absorb shock much better. There is a significant amount of webbing for two different belt atachments and this will obviously bend and absorb impact energies. The grip on the Basic is also a rubber like material which will soften impacts as well. The TOPS blade is also not as snug in the sheath so there could be multiple impacts as a result (rock to sheath, sheath to blade, blade to sheath etc.) which might act to amplify the basic impact stress.

-Cliff
 
Cliff:
Would it make a difference if one side of the sheath were warm (the side aginst your leg) and the other side was cold. Expansion and contraction working at the rivet points along with the impact? The cold might be compounded by wind chill also, as in falling toward earth after jumping out of a perfectly good airplane.

------------------
P.J.
P.J. Turner Knife Mfg, Inc.
Uluchet, What's an Uluchet? Find out at...
www.silverstar.com/turnermfg


 
Hi!

Just wanted to share my experience on this subject.
When i did service in our Air Force rangers i carried my Cold steel tanto in a kydex sheath i bought from Cutlery Shoppe.

We did a lot of winter excersises and the coldest measured temperature was -36 degrees celsius(whatever that is in fahrenheit...)and i never had a crack appear, mostly i carried it attached to my LBE for ease of use and after some cutting in icy wood, small water drops developed due to friction and when i put the knife back in the sheath it would freeze and the knife stuck so it had to be twisted/yanked out, quite rough sometimes, and i also did some really nasty crashes when skiing(not a good skier...)i think that had i carried it in a leather sheath it would have gotten lost or poked through and most possible hurt me.

Thís sheath didn't have any belt loop attached, i fastened it with paracord, i feel that belt loops are easier to break/crack than sheaths, i made a quickdraw belt sheath for my Commander and the first i made cracked when i accidentely leaned over a table and put my hand on the sheath which lay on the table, clumsy me!(BTW, the sheath was made of concealex)

I hope i helped some!
Take care and be well!/2Sharp aka Jonas

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"May all your detonations be expected"



[This message has been edited by 2Sharp (edited 22 December 1999).]
 
Chrio75,

If the object is hotter than the ambient temperature, heat loss will increase when there is air movement (wind).

I think wind chill is calculated assuming the object is at "human" temperture. Wind speed and ambient temperture are the other varibles. The wind chill temperture is the temperture at which heat loss is the same if there was no wind.

Will
 
Chrio75,

If the object is hotter than the ambient temperature, heat loss will increase when there is air movement (wind).

I think wind chill is calculated assuming the object is at "human" temperture. Wind speed and ambient temperture are the other varibles. The wind chill temperture is the temperture at which heat loss is the same if there was no wind.

Cliff,

Are the sheath thicknesses the same? Also, is the texture of the kydex the same? There may be different grades of kydex.

Will
 
Cliff If you don't start taking better care of your knives,I'm going to take them away from you until you learn how to treat them properly.=sorry, flashback to the speech my dad gave me when I was 12.
troy
 
The Busse obviously produces more body heat than the TOPS, thereby proving less vulnerable to the wind chill.
 
Cliff...

Now heres a test I'm interested in...
Very interesting Indeed...

Whats the thickness of the kydex you were testing ?

I did some minor tests of my own with concealex,,and didn't find anything as interesting. I think you tests may have been done at a colder temp.

I'm going to resume these tests when it's gets much colder outside...
Interested to know how the Concealex does compared to the Kydex..

Thanks Cliff....

Eric...

------------------
Eric E. Noeldechen
On/Scene Tactical
http://www.mnsi.net/~nbtnoel
Custom made, High Quality
Concealex Sheaths and Tool Holsters
Canada's Only Custom Concealex Shop!

 
PJ, you can get stresses from temperature gradients but you need very strong heat sources. I don't body heat would significantly effect the results, assuming of course the kydex is not against your skin.

2Sharp, thanks for the info.

Concerning wind chill, it will effect how fast any objects temperature reaches the air temperature by effecting the rate of heat loss as Will said, but it can't make it drop any lower that if there was no wind at all.

Will, the kydex does look different. When I get home from work I'll see if I can't get a decent description. I had thought that the grades may be different as this came up before when the subject of DEET vs Kydex was being discussed. The kydex is about 1/16" thick on both sheaths.

Eric, I would be interested in the results of any work you do in that area.

-Cliff

 
Hi Guys...

Cliff I will let you know once we decently go below Zero here....

Marion....

I don't think the grade thing matters much in this case,, because I believe everyone is using Kydex T,, and if I'm not mistaken it is also refered to a Kydex 100 or 200.

You get into the different grades and I Highly Doubt Anyone is using them.
They are made more for aircraft interiors and have to pass a higher fire rating. Thus the 300-400 series of Kydex.

There are also grades of kydex that will allow current to pass through them,,they are actually conductive.. Interesting!

ttyle Eric....

------------------
Eric E. Noeldechen
On/Scene Tactical
http://www.mnsi.net/~nbtnoel
Custom made, High Quality
Concealex Sheaths and Tool Holsters
Canada's Only Custom Concealex Shop!

 
We had a very cold winter in 1988 and I was packing a knife in a Kydex sheath strapped to my chaps while horseback. It was about -40 far out and I had been outside for about 4 hours so everything was good and cold. I had been riding cattle and whild putting away my horse the pole gate struck my knife and sheath and it shattered, not quite like glass, but beyond repair! The knife would stay in the sheath okay but the belt loop was toast.

This winter when it gets below zero, I will be doing some testing on Concealex to see how it compares to Kydex.

------------------
www.simonichknives.com
 
Tim Wegner had that same experience. I have two different kydex sheaths for my A2 Busses, and only one is good. I like Chiro's work better and I might go Concealex when I can afford it.
 
Forgot to mention this in the first post, the butt of the TOPS blade was significantly effected by the impacts. It chipped in several places, two of the largest chips were about 5mm long, 2mm wide and about 1 mm deep.


-Cliff
 
<quote>

Forgot to mention this in the first post, the butt of the TOPS blade was significantly
effected by the impacts. It chipped in several places, two of the largest chips were about
5mm long, 2mm wide and about 1 mm deep.
</quote>

Well I'm not suprised considering what you did! Great test though and interesting thread, thanks for the effort.

The thickness of the kydex has to make a difference and I'm sure there are different grades of thermoplastic that will also have an effect, as will the conditions under which it was molded (analogous to tempering steels). I'm also not suprised that the carry hooks break before the sheath. All that I've seen have a 180deg. bend that has to be the weakest point in the sheath system.
 
In 11+ years of military service, I've never experienced a Kydex failure with any of my sheaths, let alone heard of one! My experience ranges from extremely cold arctic weather to hot as hell desert training.
-Redleg out.

------------------
"Blessed is the Lord my rock, who trains my hands for war, and my fingers for battle..." excerpted from Psalms 144.
 
Hey Cliff,
Any chance of you posting this on the Blade Discussion forum. I know that the moderators want to encourage people to check out the other forums but this thread would interest a lot of people. Some people only have time to go to the Blade Discussion forum and I would hate for them to miss out on this great info. For those of you who haven't experienced a failure in the cold, I'm interested to know if you had any direct impacts on the sheath. Rob, I can't wait for your Kydex vs Concealex test. We've had a couple of -20 stretches this winter. What temp are you planning on testing them in? I hope you will also post your results on the general board.

Take care, (AND a big knife)
Jim
 
Jim, you can start a discussion in the general forum and simply link to this thread for reference if you want.

-Cliff
 
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