Cold Steel Recon Tanto

[Confederate]

After CS's supply of Carbon V dried up, the company began making its Recon Tantos from AUS8 stainless, and though I think AUS8 is fine for folders, I wondered if anyone, having owned and used each knife, had any insights they can offer. Also, if anyone has the newer AUS8 version and has given it a good field testing, how did it hold up in edge retention and in strength?

Some Recons managed to be broken by some users on occasion, but that was primarily when the steel was Carbon V.

Is the product better now than it was, or should Cold Steel find another carbon steel to make the knife out of? Oh, and one more thing, given the "inexpensive" nature of 4116 Krupp stainless knives, how does that stack up against the 420 CS used to use?

Any photos would be appreciated.

Carbon V Recon Tanto (top) and it's uglier brother, the
G.I. Tanto.

 

[Georgia Guy]

Knifetests.com

 

[Michael Lovett]

No AUS-8 isn't a better steel than carbon-V. Aus-8 is a similar steel to 440-B. Carbon steel is or was in the beginning 1095 Tood steel. Vastly superior.

On a side note, those two knives are knock-offs of.

1. The Lovett Combat Tanto.
2. A Strider Combat Knife

Typical Cold Steel

Mike

 

[Tony_A]

No AUS-8 isn't a better steel than carbon-V. Aus-8 is a similar steel to 440-B. Carbon steel is or was in the beginning 1095 Tood steel. Vastly superior.

On a side note, those two knives are knock-offs of.

1. The Lovett Combat Tanto.
2. A Strider Combat Knife

Typical Cold Steel

Mike

Agree that the original Carbon V (a 1095 variant with extra Chrome, Vanadium, and Nickel) was/is a better knife steel than Aus-8

I was also aware of the Strider knock-off, but not that the Recon Tanto was as well.

I was always under the (false?) impression that the "Americanized Tanto" design was one of the few things that Cold Steel didn't rip off from someone else.

If possible Mr Lovett, could you post a photo or 2 of one of your Combat Tanto knives? Maybe discuss their design and construction a little.

(I'd have PM'd you with this, but PMing "Registered User" members doesn't seem to work.)

 

[Confederate]

Yes, I realize that Carbon V is a superior steel, and that AUS8 is stainless. I just wondered if the blade's configuration made the differences more pronounced or less pronounced. I've heard people call the Recon Tanto a "pry bar," and, for what the blade is intended for, I didn't know if there would actually be a discernible difference in the field (which I think would be outdoors, perhaps camping use). I've also heard complaints about the Kraton handles not holding up and would like to find out more about that.

I'm aware of the charges that CS "ripped off" the Strider design, but I think originality in any blade design is apt to be limited at best. A tanto blade is not a new concept; neither is the stamped, "throwing knife" with cord handle design. The reason there aren't more lawsuits is that only so much originality can go into any knife. In the case of the Strider design, it appears Lynn Thompson went out of his way to copy it, even when he could have easily made it better and less blocky. How much originality went into it is debatable. What's not debatable is Strider's ridiculous price of $325. Had I been Thompson, I would have streamlined the tanto blade and put in a rounded choil and more attractive hilt. Apparently, Thompson had something else to grind—an ax, perhaps? For $325, it's difficult to imagine what I'd be paying for if I bought the Strider. Brilliant engineering and design? I don't think so. Tantos are a dime a dozen, as are corded survival knives--or did Mick Strider invent corded knife handles?

So what if CS had used a more streamlined version with a more recessed, round choil? Would anyone have cared? As far as I can tell, the design was almost straight across the board. What was Thompson trying to accomplish? "Stealing" a design that's rather ugly and kludgey doesn't make much sense unless Thompson was trying to make a point. It's not like he stole the tooling, too. I don't know the answer and I'm not trying to defend Thompson, necessarily. There doesn't seem to be a lot of difference in the finished product except for the horrendous price of the Strider.

People have copied Smith & Wesson revolver designs for decades. Doesn't mean it's right, it's just the way things are. Is having a Rossi .38 in my dresser drawer any worse than my having a CS GI Tanto in the same drawer, or is it equally egregious? A S&W would undoubtedly have been a substantially better gun, but is the superiority of the Strider just as demonstrable?

I don't think Thompson should have done what he done, but, when I hear the word "rip-off," I think first of that $325 price tag. Competition has always driven the free market and blatant design copies may be reprehensible, but in this case Cold Steel or anyone else could have produced a nicer looking piece. Undoubtedly, Thompson should have done so, but there's so little originality here that I think it doesn't quite reach the "morally reprehensible" stage. Just my own thoughts. Others may differ.

Is it theft or just good ol' competition? Originality, performance and
price all are factors, but certainly Thompson could have come up with
his own tanto "throwing knife" design. It likely would have even been
more attractive; certainly less controversial.

 

[udtjim]

I have not tried the new recon tanto but I have had my Carbon five recon tanto for almost twenty years. It's a keeper for sure. As far as rip offs, since knives have been made since cave man days, there is no original designs and has not been for a couple hundred years or more. I have to laugh when I here about how some johny come lately company ripped off another johny come lately company.

 

[MrMojoRising]

Own a Strider and then you'll understand.

 

[udtjim]

Been there, Done that. More than once.

 

[Michael Lovett]

I have not tried the new recon tanto but I have had my Carbon five recon tanto for almost twenty years. It's a keeper for sure. As far as rip offs, since knives have been made since cave man days, there is no original designs and has not been for a couple hundred years or more. I have to laugh when I here about how some Johny come lately company ripped off another Johny come lately company.

bull Shit! You apparently don't go to many Custom Knife Shows! Ron Lake the first inter frame. Mike Walker the first of many different designs.He changed folders forever! RW Loveless Man, Where do I start! Bob Loveless,a Johny come lately, yeah, right! Kit Carson, come latley, Paul, Barry Woods, Jody Samson, Fuller, the first mid lock. All were at the end of the grip before him! Just what world do you live in.




When I met with Lynn Thompson at the Shot show in New Orleans, (I was there with Ted Nugent who handled Lovett Knives in his Bow hunting business at the time.) Lynn Thompson approached me about the combat Tanto. He was excited about it. Of course he later said that it would never sell. Not worth the tooling. This was just weeks before the release. Very typical of Lynn Thompson. I am a very good friend to the man who headed up the grinding dept. of Cold Steel when things were made here. Man, could I tell you stories! Thompson is famous for ripping off Custom Makers. Those of us who work in one man shops, where every dollar counts. These are not Johny come lately companies, but hard working custom makers. Trying to design what will be popular, hard working knives for our customers. If you don't think any of us strive to make something different,and at the same time functional, and useful, you really don't understand what we do at all.

I'll have to admit that it is a challange to design somthing different that is also useful, the old saying is that there isn't anything new under the sun!

But we do pull it off.

I'll try to pull a pic of one tomorrow
Mike Lovett
Maker
The Loveless Connection Knives

 

[Michael Lovett]

OK, Here is the original. Yeah, I know. I didn't make it with a rubber grip!

[/IMG]

 

[Michael Lovett]

And this made for Desert Storm Troops. Years before anyone ever saw a Strider. But to be fair. Dawson was making a similar knife years before me! Kinda kills the originator advertisement doesn't it.

On the other hand, I think Strider does a fantastic job on what they do. And For what they are designed to do. Troops could tear up an anvil!

[/IMG]

Mike

 

[Tony_A]

OK, Here is the original. Yeah, I know. I didn't make it with a rubber grip!

[/IMG]

LOL---Yes, there's a discussion thread floating around somewhere on just how valuable those Kraton handles must be, as Cold Steel also uses them on their $10 plastic "knives."

 

[Confederate]

Yep, that was the big question I had. As of late, I've become fascinated with the relationship between blade and handles, not only on fixed knives, but folders. Spyderco puts a nice S30V blade in its Native, but the frame is a fiberglass-reinforced plastic. Nice deal for the price and Zytel lasts practically forever. In many cases, though, the frame and handle material plainly upstage the blade. The first CS Recon 1s had a great lock and frame, but the 440A steel blade was a real turn off. People were paying more for the frame.

I've sometimes wondered why a third-party knife industry doesn't take off. You can get different barrels for guns, different lenses for cameras, drop-in LED lamps for flashlights. So why can't a person sit down and order different blades for their knives. As much as I like the new Recon 1s, I prefer the old frames over the new G10. That steel reinforced Zytel often acted as a worry stone for me, and I liked rubbing my thumb along the smooth, cool surface. The G10 grippy stuff they have now, conversely, would be good for grinding dead skin off my feet! Yeeeesh.

If anyone knows the reason that Thompson made his G.I. Tanto in the same image and likeness of Strider's tanto, I'd love to hear the story. I looked at my own G.I. Tanto earlier today and thought it was quite uncomfortable to hold and cut with. I've sharpened the top of the blade, too, and though I think it's well worth the eighteen dollars I paid for it, I again thought how much better the design could have been had Thompson just changed a few things. Had the knife been just a tad longer, narrower at the tip than the hilt and a rounded choil that would fit most index fingers, not only would he have given it a distinctive look, he would have, I think, made a better knife. The only thing I can figure is that he had something else in mind.

Oh, and something else. Before this one instance, had Strider and Thompson ever had any problems? Most of what I've found on the Internet are references to the feud. I've never read statements by either man. Does anyone know of a link where I can read something about the entire incident?

Thanks.


-----------

 

[udtjim]

Never been to a custom knife show. I do however know more than a little about weaponry. Fred Flinstone probably made the first tanto.

 

[Confederate]

...I do however know more than a little about weaponry. Fred Flintstone probably made the first tanto.

Actually, Fred made the second tanto. It was based on a sword Flintstone had loaned Barney Rubble. Rubble, who was always living up to his name, accidentally broke the blade about sixteen inches from the hilt. It had been a very valuable sword (as most people were using clubs in those days), and it was an heirloom, belonging to the family from well since Neanderthal times. The two had been lifelong friends, but in a fit of anger, Flintstone used the truncated weapon to dispatch not only Rubble, but his second wife, Lucene (Betty having died several years earlier under mysterious circumstances.) To pay for his defense, Fred sold the remaining heirloom to a visiting foreigner, telling him it was a new blade design. The foreign gentlemen believed Flintstone's story and marketed the peculiar blade point. Though we don't know his name, he produced a number of short swords and blades for a local mercenary named Samuel T. Samurai. Samurai decided to name the unique point after is own middle, ancestral, name, "Tanto." His son, also named Tanto, kept the design going, going so far as to break one of his own swords just to show how superior it was.

Just about everyone's stolen the design since.

 

[johnu2]

If anyone knows the reason that Thompson made his G.I. Tanto in the same image and likeness of Strider's tanto, I'd love to hear the story.

This is the reason (excerpt from their product description):

"......Best of all, it’s a great value. Please don’t throw away hundreds and hundreds of dollars on similar knives sold by convicted felons and rip off artists posing as elite “military operators”. Get the real G.I. Tanto from Cold Steel and get more than your money’s worth."

 

[yoz's friend]

to kinda answer the op's question.ive got a carbon 5 recon scout ive been using(hard) for about 10 years.its a very tough knife and i cant imagine what you would do with the knife that would cause it to break. i would rate this particular model and steel up there with any knife of its type.also the rubber or whatever it is has shown no wear at all.cant speak for the new stuff though.hope this helps

 

[Tony_A]

This is the reason (excerpt from their product description):

"......Best of all, it’s a great value. Please don’t throw away hundreds and hundreds of dollars on similar knives sold by convicted felons and rip off artists posing as elite “military operators”. Get the real G.I. Tanto from Cold Steel and get more than your money’s worth."

Cold Steel has made roundabout references to Strider knives other times in print. Below is a cut+paste from one of their "Riposte" articles on their website.

It's in the one titled:

RIPOSTE--2003 Blade Show
The Karambit "It Ain't All That!" (Fall 2003):

(The bolding of the text was done by me)



So this year at the Blade Show we were appalled by the profusion of attendees,
and exhibitors alike pretending to be ex-military “High Speed Operators”. It was
so easy to spot them. All you had to do is look in the aisles or booths along the walls
for smug faced men dressed head to toe in black or cammo “utilities” with their pant
legs bloused into jump boots and wearing fearsome logos emblazoned on their
backs.
We despise these dogs. They are without shame and are only too happy to dupe
a gullible public into believing they or their knives are somehow endorsed by the
military. We also refute their claims to being experts on knife manufacturing or knife
fighting based on military experience as totally unfounded. You see, our ground
troops, including the most elite special units, fight almost exclusively with firearms
and sadly, receive little or no training in knife fighting.
So the next time you see someone at a gun or knife show dressed in a pseudo
military costume selling two tone, spray painted battle blades with “de rigeur” para
cord wrapped handles, know him for the charlatan that he is.

 

[Michael Lovett]

Tony gets it, Ud doesn't .

It's all about money!

Experience in weaponry? Figures! Another all knowing expert! Here at Ft. Hood, every pinger straight out of boot is an expert. Every re-tire-e is a super expert. Weapons cover a world of knowledge. Yes, I'm sure you know a little. So does a lot of other people.

 

[3Guardsmen]

No AUS-8 isn't a better steel than carbon-V. Aus-8 is a similar steel to 440-B. Carbon steel is or was in the beginning 1095 Tood steel. Vastly superior.

On a side note, those two knives are knock-offs of.

1. The Lovett Combat Tanto.
2. A Strider Combat Knife

Typical Cold Steel

Mike

Unless I'm mistaken, hasn't Cold Steel always contended that their Recon Tanto was a more affordable version of their original Tanto line (as in the Magnum Tanto)? Do you consider that (the original Cold Steel Tanto) to be a copy of your design? Please don't misunderstand me, I'm in no way trying to defend Cold Steel, I'm just trying to better understand. Thanks.

I was always under the (false?) impression that the "Americanized Tanto" design was one of the few things that Cold Steel didn't rip off from someone else.

Bob Lum is said by many to have been the inventer of the "Americanized Tanto" design.

Regards,
3G