Cold Steel's San Mai a Rip-Off

C

Confederate

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If one goes to the Cold Steel website, one reads regarding the company's San Mai III steel: "A simple way to think of San Mai III® blade construction is to imagine a sandwich: The meat center is hard, high carbon steel and the pieces of bread on either side are the lower-carbon, tough side panels. The edge of the blade should be hard to maximize edge holding ability, but if the entire blade was hard it could be damaged during the rigors of battle."

The problem is, the "hard, high carbon steel" is not high carbon steel at all, but stainless VG-1, which is almost like AUS8, which was the "meat center" of the company's San Mai II a few years ago.

Now I have nothing against VG-1. I think it's a great mid-level stainless steel that's easy to sharpen and is plenty tough as to not require 420 panels! But wait, I thought, maybe they heat treat the VG-1 steel to be harder and perhaps a bit more brittle. So I called the company and asked one of their tech people. The answer, unfortunately, is no, there's no difference in the heat treat. It's the same "subzero-quenched" stainless used in their old Voyagers and other knives. If they didn't need 420 panels, why do the new ones need them (at extra cost)? I'd like to buy some of the new Voyagers with the Tri-Ad locks, but I don't want to pay a premium for a mid-level grade steel that's a gimmick.

Maybe there's something I'm missing. I have a Konjo that's made of brightly polished San Mai III (it was on sale), and it came with the sharpest blade I've ever seen on a production knife. I was just wondering if any of you had the new Voyagers with San Mai, and what your thoughts are.

Also, if anyone has any good photos of their Tri-Ad Voyagers or other models, I'd like to see what the blades look like.

.
 
Hmm.. I'm pretty sure I saw that the new voyagers are in stonewashed AUS-8 anyways..
 
Dude, they aran't making the new Voyagers in SM3. At least not for 2011.


"I was just wondering if any of you had the new Voyagers with San Mai, and what your thoughts are."
 
My guess is that they save on money by using less VG-1 per knife and they get to charge a premium because it's "San Mai."
 
I don't really think Cold Steel focuses a lot on edge holding.More like on toughness or something.
I can understand a laminated steel on a long combat blade, but not on an EDC knife.
That "Sub-Zero Quench" sounds like it would make it a little brittle though.
San Mai 3 is a great steel, but it seems they're charging too much for two panels on 420j2 on the side.
 
I think the laminated thing is getting out of control these days. Unless its ZDP there is no need to laminate a folder. I love the look of a hamon and some steel really do benifit from lamination but I would rather have cold steel use a premium steel than a VG 1 laminate. Or if they are going for the laminate, how about CPM M4 or 3V? :D Hey I can dream can't I?

I never buy stainless fixed blades save for fallkniven's anyways. And even that is rare.
 
What I dislike about laminated blades is the exterior layers usually mark up and/or scratch pretty easily.
 
This is why Cold Steel is considered a good brand by mall ninjas, and Spyderco is preferred here. Real knife nuts chase good steel; mall ninjas buy based on advertising.
 
Confederate said:
If one goes to the Cold Steel website, one reads regarding the company's San Mai III steel: "A simple way to think of San Mai III® blade construction is to imagine a sandwich: The meat center is hard, high carbon steel and the pieces of bread on either side are the lower-carbon, tough side panels. The edge of the blade should be hard to maximize edge holding ability, but if the entire blade was hard it could be damaged during the rigors of battle."

The problem is, the "hard, high carbon steel" is not high carbon steel at all, but stainless VG-1, which is almost like AUS8, which was the "meat center" of the company's San Mai II a few years ago.

Now I have nothing against VG-1. I think it's a great mid-level stainless steel that's easy to sharpen and is plenty tough as to not require 420 panels! But wait, I thought, maybe they heat treat the VG-1 steel to be harder and perhaps a bit more brittle. So I called the company and asked one of their tech people. The answer, unfortunately, is no, there's no difference in the heat treat. It's the same "subzero-quenched" stainless used in their old Voyagers and other knives. If they didn't need 420 panels, why do the new ones need them (at extra cost)? I'd like to buy some of the new Voyagers with the Tri-Ad locks, but I don't want to pay a premium for a mid-level grade steel that's a gimmick.

Maybe there's something I'm missing. I have a Konjo that's made of brightly polished San Mai III (it was on sale), and it came with the sharpest blade I've ever seen on a production knife. I was just wondering if any of you had the new Voyagers with San Mai, and what your thoughts are.

Also, if anyone has any good photos of their Tri-Ad Voyagers or other models, I'd like to see what the blades look like.

.
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Good to hear that! I was about to pull the trigger on a San Mai Laredo Bowie... I thought VG-1 would be at least like very hard VG-10 (62+).


Taken from their FAQ:


Q: What is San Mai III® blade construction?


"A simple way to think of San Mai III® blade construction is to imagine a sandwich: The meat center is hard, high carbon steel and the pieces of bread on either side are the lower-carbon, tough side panels. The edge of the blade should be hard to maximize edge holding ability, but if the entire blade was hard it could be damaged during the rigors of battle. For ultimate toughness the body of the blade must be able to withstand impact and lateral stresses. Toughness is generally associated with "softness" and "flexibility" in steel, so that, surprisingly, if a blade is made "tough" the edge won't be hard enough to offer superior edge holding. San Mai III® blades provides a blade with hard (higher carbon) steel in the middle for a keen, long lasting edge and tougher (lower-carbon) steel along the sides for flexibility."



Q: What is VG-1 Stainless Steel?


"When considering a new material for a performance upgrade for the Cold Steel® Tanto, we tested seven different grades of steel including Shiro 2, V-SP-2, 10A, 440C, VG-10, ATS 34, and VG-1. Physical testing for sharpness, edge retention, point strength, shock, and ultimate blade strength showed that while many of the steels had increased performance in one or two testing categories, only one, VG-1, showed the greatest performance increases in the most critical categories. With an outstanding ability to retain an edge and proven strength in point and blade tests, VG-1 will provide Cold Steel® customers with superior performance previously unavailable in a stainless steel blade."


Lying mother#@$*&%!!
 
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I know my CS Rajah II is deadly and makes me look cooler, looking cooler is what its all about...
 
VG-1 absolutely IS high-carbon, and it's quite different from AUS8A.
Comparison_VG1_AUS8A.PNG

As for heat treat, I have no facts to back up my personal experience, which is that VG-1 will chip at times, but I've never had an SM3 blade chip on me.
 
Confederate said:
Maybe there's something I'm missing.

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Click to expand...

Hi Confederate. What you are missing is the intent of Cold Steel's San Mai III, which is to produce a stainless blade that has the toughness and edge retention properties of the Carbon V blades that they originally had.

Carbon V is essentially 1095 with small additions of various alloying elements. It's exact composition varied a bit depending on from whom they were buying the blades.

Based on composition, the performance of Carbon V should be a tad better than that of 1095, both in toughness and edge retention. I can't tell the difference in edge retention in my testing and I don't test for toughness. In my edge retention testing, 1095 is similar to AUS8 in performance. But AUS8 is not as tough as 1095. The chromium makes the AUS8 more brittle. So to balance that, you sandwich the AUS8 between layers of low carbon stainless and voila! you got a stainless steel that performs pretty much like Carbon V in both toughness and edge retention.

The edge retention of VG10 is a good deal better than that of AUS8. So if you use that as the center of a San Mai III sandwich, you may indeed get a stainless steel with better edge retention than 1095 and is possibly just as tough.

To me, it would not be worthwhile to have a Voyager with a San Mai III blade. The improved toughness would not be needed. But it might make sense to have a large bladed knife made from it. For the price (albeit high price), you get a stainless blade with better edge retention than the 1085 that CS now uses and maybe the same toughness. It's out of my price range, but it does make sense.
 
vg1 in one of the folders cut the same amount of cardboard as vg10. i also get good usage with the vg1 kitchen knife i use . vg1 is'nt s30 but it certainly is'nt trash . dennis
 
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