Cold weather sleeping gear???

valcas1

valcas1

Joined
Feb 25, 2007
Messages
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Lets hear it! What is everybody using for sleeping bags?

I am looking for a new sleeping bag/modular system and would like to know how everyone here handles winter outdoor sleeping. What bag are you using?

I am looking at the USGI modular sleep system. The newer generation which I understand is lighter than previous systems.

Also do you sleep with poly pro or you base layer on? Whats the coldest temps you slept in and what did you do to stay comfortable?

As always thanks in advance for your input and sharing real life wisdom.

Paul
 
I have an old Marmout 4season down bag.... rated for -15*F (I think. I am writing this from sunny Florida and the bag is in NH.) I use a silk bag liner and usually have my Hot Chillies on as a base layer and silk socks and a Filson woolcap. The coldest I have tried this setup was a very brisk night that hit about -30*F. Well, I am still alive, so I guess it worked!

My recommendations are:
Don't put too much in your bag at night (too many water bottles is bad :( duh
Don't breath into your bag while you sleep (pull your cap over your face, wear a face mask, etc, but don't blow into your bag)
Be as dry as possible before crawling into the sack

I know that USGI stuff can be had fairly cheep, but I would rather get a commercially available product when it comes to winter camping. The military tends to be slow to adapt for outdoor gear.
How about a Northface Darkstar -40 bag? They can be had for about $250. Also, please try your new gear in the back yard first! That way if it isn't warm enough, no harm done!
 
love my wiggy's desert bag. lightweight, compact, dries quickly if it gets wet. used it to 20's with base layer on, comfy w/o base at 60's and 70's. if possible i always put on dry base layer to sleep, let the other dry out. sleeping sweaty will chill you. have used older slumberjack 0 bag to -10 in primitive bivys like a snow trench to stay out of the wind, no base layer. nice bag but bulky and heavy. i am told wiggy's is providing us mil with bag systems. my next cold weather bag will be from them. will be able to use the desert bag as an outer bag to layer up in colder temps. z-rest pad under all of them. have done snow caves in 0's with no bag, only parka. amazing how well snow insulates you from the cold.
 
MEC Raven -12 down mummy. I havent used it in temperatures below -2 but at that temperature, it was plenty warm. It sure is nice to have a lofty down bag to go to at the end of the night.

god help you if it gets wet though.
 
I have an older peak 1 that I just can't seem to let go of, it is rated down to 0. I have slept in it down too single digits, I did have on poly pros and wool socks and stayed toasty. Couple of weeks ago I camped for a week in south GA, temp dropped to 27, according to the radio, I stayed comfortable in my peak with just my skivvies my buddy got cold in his USGI black cold weather bag the next night he put the patrol bag on and slept comfortable.

I have slept in the open in the USGI bag with patrol bag and bivy attached down to the teens and slept cool, I think the teperature rating for the bulk and weight is vastly over rated, I do like the bivy though. Chris
 
valcas1, are we talking car camping or backpacking?

If the first, two good bags used together give you more options. A bag used to supplement a below-freezing bag does not have to be expensive 'cause you won't use it as much.


And what's "cold" so some is "mild" to others. What minimums are you anticipating?


As to clothing inside the bag, the bag is a garment, specialized for sleeping. We're just talking layers here -- more for colder.


Too add to Viper's good tips, the non-crushable insulation under you is as critical as the bag around you.
 
Thomas Linton said:
valcas1, are we talking car camping or backpacking?

If the first, two good bags used together give you more options. A bag used to supplement a below-freezing bag does not have to be expensive 'cause you won't use it as much.


And what's "cold" so some is "mild" to others. What minimums are you anticipating?


As to clothing inside the bag, the bag is a garment, specialized for sleeping. We're just talking layers here -- more for colder.


Too add to Viper's good tips, the non-crushable insulation under you is as critical as the bag around you.
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Very good post, a good pad means the difference in a good nights sleep and sitting up feeding the fire all night.

Also don't listen to the people that say you need to sleep in as little clothes as possible to stay warm, I have personally busted that myth to many times to count. However, as someone else said make sure your clothing is as dry as possible before getting into your bag, I used to carry a light set of fleece just for sleeping. Chris
 
If you don't have an Exped Downmat, bring a closed-cell sleeping pad for insulation from the cold cold ground. Bring both if you can. :)
 
Few things I use for Winter camping (0 to -5 degrees at the lowest temps):
Tried an REI 0 degree bag - mummy style. Works great, but I am an active sleeper so I picked up a Alps Mountaneering 0 degree. Not a mummy style, but more rectangular and it works great. REI 3.5" thick sleeping pad and an REI GEO Mountain 3 tent. Still sleep in thermals and a fleece cap and wool socks. Toasty warm...

Trick is to sleep in dry clothes and get up off the ground. I tried a foot pump inflatable air mattress as well. Worked well to, but the thicker REI camping pad is easier to deal with and takes FAR less space.
 
for Winter: Marmot Snow Goose (down), The North Face Vapour Barrier Liner, MEC Goretex Bivy, Thermarest Regular Long; lowest temp - used outside in snow shelter (quensot) at -35c
 
I started in the mid 80's on Baffin Island using a 0C (32F) barrel bag and all my insulating layers of clothing removing only the outer wind layer. With a good insulation under me I spent lots of -40 time in that bag. Feet got cold but nothing serious.

Now nearing 50 I need more bag. I use an old SWAN super dryloft mummy from MEC rated to -20C (0F) With my base layer of insulation I have spent lots of nights at -30C.... Don't go out at -40 anymore if I can help it. For long trips over three days or so you need a way to dry out the bag or use a vapor barrier. The down loses insulation as it picks up moisture from your body. A black inner will help as you can turn the bag inside out on a sunny day and let the sun evaporate some moisture.


Good trick is to put some hot water in a nalgene bottle and use it as a hot water bottle. Make sure it has a good lid. Also I swear by a pee bottle. Doing the business quickly and then rewarming in your bag before you get too cold is important. Once chilled it's hard work to warm back up.

Another trick is to have a good oversize down parka. Zipped up and slid over the bottom of the bag it adds some warmth as long as it's big enough not to compress your bag. Put on with your legs in the bag is a good way to sit in the tent before sleep or working on projects. Important to go to sleep warm.

If I was forced to spend -40 time I'd get an over bag with a synthetic lining and be done with it.
 
runningboar said:
...Also don't listen to the people that say you need to sleep in as little clothes as possible to stay warm...
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I am reading very good advices here so far... keep up the good work!

Let's see if I can add some more info. I guess that there is a little bit of truth in those people who say that you need to sleep in as little clothes as possible to stay warm... The main reason for that is that strech clothes tend to restrict blood circulation and that is really what gets you cold. That said I usually sleep fully clothed (even watterproof layer as long as it is dry) so I can pack a lighther sleeping bags. Right now I own a OºC down bag from Mountain Equipment (300g of 90/10 down for a total weight of 800g) and a heavier RAB Summit 700 that is rated for -17ºC. I do winter climbs as well and 80% of the times I pick up the ligther bag. Sleeping fully dressed allows you to use the clothes all the time, dry them with your bodywarmth and you don't have such a hard time getting out of the bag in the morning. The only thing i don't wear while sleeping is the down jacket (or Primaloft) I just lay it over the feet. Be careful not to choose a tight fitting bag if you plan to follow the advice of sleeping fully dressed because you can be so stuffed in there that you compress the insulation of the bag.

Sleeping with your head below your legs is also the greatest recipe for cold feet so be careful. And I will encorage you to buy the very best sleeping mat (Deluxe RidgeRest or alike). A little more width is always wellcome if you tend to roll a lot while sleeping, otherwhise you will end up wet (if you sleep over snow I mean).

I would say that you better forget about modular systems and alike... I am not a fan of bivy bags either.

Mikel
 
Thanks Mikal, that makes a lot of sense, I have never understood the concept of more clothes makes you cold. But I can for sure see how wearing too many clothes in your bag can compress the insulation. I have only used a bivy in warm damp/wet conditions not in the cold, in very cold dry conditions I don't see how it could be a benefit. Chris
 
runningboar said:
Thanks Mikal, that makes a lot of sense, I have never understood the concept of more clothes makes you cold. But I can for sure see how wearing too many clothes in your bag can compress the insulation. I have only used a bivy in warm damp/wet conditions not in the cold, in very cold dry conditions I don't see how it could be a benefit. Chris
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Even those so called breathable bivy bags (Gore Tex and alike) don't work well at all. These kind of microporous textiles need to have temperature differential between the inside and the outside to be able to move moisture from the inside to the outside. The problem is that a sleeping bag is so efficient that very little heat goes out so teh air trapped between the outside of the sleeping bag and the inside of the bivy bag is... cold. There isn't really that temp differential between the inside and the ouside of the vivy bag. The moisture always ends up freezing in the inside. A friend of mine bought an expensive one from Mountain Hardwear and ended up selling it again after using it like twice.

I agree with you that they may excell for warm damp conditions though. You can also get a thicker one and use it fully clothed as the ONLY bag... but you need to be at least Mark Twight to do that and smile afterwards (this time put on the down jacket!)

Mikel
 
Mikel_24 said:
. . . I would say that you better forget about modular systems and alike... I am not a fan of bivy bags either.

Mikel
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I wonder about bivy bags in extreme cold because they do not "breathe" all that well.

But what porblems do you see with "modular systems"? Extra clothing to wear with a bag is "modular" in a sense - something to add to the basic bag.
 
I have an older The North Face Snowshoe 0° bag that has a VersaTech water resistant shell. For winter car camping I've used a Thermarest pad on top of a closed-cell foam pad like a RidgeRest or a Z-Rest. That combo has been adequate in temps down to around 15°. I only wear minimal clothing like a long underwear top and bottom in the winter.

Interesting stuff about the Gore-Tex bivy bags, Mikel_24. I have a Gore-Tex bivy, but have never used it in cold weather. My neighbor and I are going to try to go camping later this month, so perhaps I'll give the Gore-Tex bivy a whirl and see how it goes for the sake of science.
 
If the air at those tiny little holes in Gore-Tex is below feezing, the warm, moist air migrating from your body will freeze solid = no holes = plastic bag. So whether it breathes or not is largely a funcion of how cold it is.

I have observed this several times with Gore-Tex jackets and sleeping bag shells (that Marmot used to use). At 25F they were still working, but when it started to fall towards 0F and below, water, then ice, started forming inside the shell.

One night that dropped to -17F almost everyone got some ice inside the cover of their bags. "Almost," because I had pulled an opened 40 degree rectangular bag as a quilt over my bag. The ice was inside that outer layer. My mummy bag was dry.
 
Thomas Linton said:
But what porblems do you see with "modular systems"? Extra clothing to wear with a bag is "modular" in a sense - something to add to the basic bag.
Click to expand...
My main problem with modular systems is that they are... heavy. You can always slip inside two bags (300g down filling for one of them and 700g of down for the other one)at the time for a total weight of.. 1000g of down. I bet you that any 1000g filling weight bag is going to be lighter than those two toghether. Remember I am light packing oriented... I am a climber! If you want to go car camping modular systems are ok.

Thomas Linton said:
If the air at those tiny little holes in Gore-Tex is below feezing, the warm, moist air migrating from your body will freeze solid = no holes = plastic bag. So whether it breathes or not is largely a funcion of how cold it is.

I have observed this several times with Gore-Tex jackets and sleeping bag shells (that Marmot used to use). At 25F they were still working, but when it started to fall towards 0F and below, water, then ice, started forming inside the shell.
Click to expand...

That is exactly what I mean. Once the moisture has frozen up inside the Gore Tex bivy bag... they are not breathable any more. For jackets and pants you will be fine as long as you produce enough heat to prevent them from getting to cold. But talking about extreme cold the big question arises... WHY ARE YOU WEARING WATERPROOF GARMENTS IF THE ONLY THING YOU MIGHT ENCOUNTER IS SNOW? That is what windproof (think Windblock from Polartec or WindStopper from Gore) or shoftshell (think Shoeller for example) are for. The later seed snow quite well so you don't end up all wet from snow sticking to the jacket and melting from your bodyheat. In the artic expeditions people don't carry heavy waterproof shells but wind blockin garments all the time. They need to stay dry no matter what and they found that is the best way.

I am a fan of Shoftshell garments for the same reason (don't ice climb into goretex gear any more unless the ice fall is way too wet).

Mikel
 
The rationale for waterproof garments in Winter is that some areas of the US (like northen Ohio, for one) get rain and wet snow as often as dry snow. Further north, it would be different.

Now that water repellant windbreakers are back as the trendy "soft shell," many such items are around. Unfortunately, most are water repellent only due to a spray coating of "Durable Water Repellent" (DWR), so-called because it is not especially durable/needs regular reapplication.

Garments using Schoeller fabrics are hard to find on this side of the Big Pond. Using a Schoeller fabric adds cost and quality, but if the buying public does not understand the "adds quality" part, the manufaturer sees no reason to use the material. Also, the biggest factor in the price charged is the brand name: North Face; Spyder; etc. (Even Schoeller uses DWR to improve performance.)

Nextec Epic (different technology) is not as breathable as Schoeller Dry Skin Extreme but is far better than Gore-Tex and most of its competitors (eVent being the big exception, the most breathable waterproof material, and almost as breathable as the merely water repellant Schoeller Dryskin Extreme). Also, Nextec requires no DWR treatment ever to keep from wetting out. Each strand of the fabric is coated with silicon. This last factor recommends it to the military, and it has been adopted for two (or is it three?) layers of the latest version (Gen III) of the U.S. Extended Cold Weather Clothing System (ECWCS). It is also showing up as the outer layer of pricy down-insulated garments.
 
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