Review Colonial Prov USA and Imperial Ireland Camp Knives

[lithicus]

I decided to post this here primarily because I wanted some feedback and had some questions as well.

Either way, I recently purchased two camp knives. I thought they would be nice little gimmick knives I could use when taking a lunch break from fishing or to bring along on a camping trip. Based on what I had read, I honestly expected the Colonial Prov USA knife to be of a much nicer quality than the Imperial Ireland. But, I couldn't have been more wrong.

The Colonial has very little snap and a fair amount of wobble on the spoon and fork. The most bizarre quality issue, however, is the backsprings. They are both proud in every position and not by a small amount; I'd say around 1/16th of an inch. Given that it is proud about the same amount in all positions, I considered grinding the backsprings down flush. But, given how weak the snap is already, I fear removing this much metal from the backsprings would only make the situation far worse.

On the other hand, the Imperial has nice strong snap on all implements and virtual no play at all in the open position. Springs are not perfectly flush in any position, but it's on a much smaller magnitude; say a few thousandths of an inch. My only complaint about this knife is the covers/handles do not seem very secure and can rattle a little bit. But, at least this knife is more functional which is usually my number one requirement in any of my knives.

Anyway here are some photos (Imperial on the left, Colonial on the right) with some follow up questions in the next post.

 

[lithicus]

Am I just unlucky? I didn't expect GEC or even Case level of quality in either knife. But, I did expect that the Prov RI Colonial would have been of a higher quality being made in the USA and it's kind of put me off on Colonial as a brand entirely. I don't know how those backsprings ever left the factory... Conversely, I expected the Imperial Ireland to be cheap junk akin to some knockoff product from a gas station. And it impressed me the most! I have another Imperial Ireland stockman on the way I picked up for dirt cheap. I'll be interested to see its fit and finish. I'm interested in what others here have experienced with Colonial Prov USA and Imperial Ireland knives.

Lastly, I don't believe I've ever owned a celluloid covered/handled knife before. But, this Colonial camp knife is definitely not delrin as far as I can tell and certainly is not anything like micarta or G10. It seems like some kind of generic plastic that has shown a tiny bit of shrinkage. Is this likely celluloid? I'd like to know as I've heard about off gassing and am right now playing it safe by keeping it separate from all of my other knives.

 

[screened porch]

The Colonial probably has a celluloid veneer on sheet metal scales held on by tabs crimped at the ends, same as most RI Imperials.
Both of them made handles like everybody else in earlier days. Imperial shared their patents with their cousins at Colonial, and some of their knives at some periods look pretty much identical.
Imperial got bought by Schrade and Colonial didn't; maybe that created a difference in their ability to maintain quality?

 

[lithicus]

The Colonial probably has a celluloid veneer on sheet metal scales held on by tabs crimped at the ends, same as most RI Imperials.

Thank you very much! I have never held celluloid in hand or seen it in person. But, based on what I had seen pictures of and what I had read online, I assumed it was celluloid in this case. And that is great information about the sheet metal scales and the tabs. I can definitely confirm this by simply looking into the blade well. Some of the tabs were protruding quite a bit and I pushed them a little back into place so they are more flush.

 

[r8shell]

Am I just unlucky? I didn't expect GEC or even Case level of quality in either knife. But, I did expect that the Prov RI Colonial would have been of a higher quality being made in the USA and it's kind of put me off on Colonial as a brand entirely. I don't know how those backsprings ever left the factory... Conversely, I expected the Imperial Ireland to be cheap junk akin to some knockoff product from a gas station. And it impressed me the most! I have another Imperial Ireland stockman on the way I picked up for dirt cheap. I'll be interested to see its fit and finish. I'm interested in what others here have experienced with Colonial Prov USA and Imperial Ireland knives.

Lastly, I don't believe I've ever owned a celluloid covered/handled knife before. But, this Colonial camp knife is definitely not delrin as far as I can tell and certainly is not anything like micarta or G10. It seems like some kind of generic plastic that has shown a tiny bit of shrinkage. Is this likely celluloid? I'd like to know as I've heard about off gassing and am right now playing it safe by keeping it separate from all of my other knives.

It's hard to say. Both Colonial and Imperial produced many knives for many years, and It wouldn't be surprising for quality to go up and down at various times. They tended to be decent quality budget knives (and many used ones you find have been sloppily sharpened and thrown against trees by cub scouts at some point)

Here's a thread you might find helpful:

Colonial Knife Co Providence R.I.

Hey guys. Possibly my first post here in the traditional forum. I spend a lot of time beating up big black fixed blade knives (buy an axe genius!) but always have a little traditional in my pocket. One of my favorite traditional knife company's is Colonial. My grandfather gave me my...

www.bladeforums.com

 

[screened porch]

Thank you very much! I have never held celluloid in hand or seen it in person. But, based on what I had seen pictures of and what I had read online, I assumed it was celluloid in this case. And that is great information about the sheet metal scales and the tabs. I can definitely confirm this by simply looking into the blade well. Some of the tabs were protruding quite a bit and I pushed them a little back into place so they are more flush.

You're welcome. I added a bit of speculation to my previous post.
There's a thread by B Mauser (not sure of spacing, capitalization, or punctuation) about Colonial Knife Company of Providence Rhode Island that might interest you.

 

[screened porch]

r8shell got there faster with more, I see.

They tended to be decent quality budget knives (and many used ones you find have been sloppily sharpened and thrown against trees by cub scouts at some point)

And considering how few (if any?) I've seen actually broken, I find it hard to sneer at their cheap construction.

 

[lithicus]

It's hard to say. Both Colonial and Imperial produced many knives for many years, and It wouldn't be surprising for quality to go up and down at various times. They tended to be decent quality budget knives (and many used ones you find have been sloppily sharpened and thrown against trees by cub scouts at some point)

hahah This is a very good point! I did expect budget level knives, but was just surprised by the backsprings more than anything else on that Colonial. I have some knives that their backsprings aren't that proud even when 3/4 open! Seems likely I just got a bad knife of the bunch or happened to have purchased during a year where quality dipped.

Here's a thread you might find helpful

I actually found this thread before making my purchase and it was one of the reasons I was excited to get the Colonial! It does seem like for the price, they typically aren't bad knives. Maybe I'll have to give them another shot

Both of them made handles like everybody else in earlier days. Imperial shared their patents with their cousins at Colonial, and some of their knives at some periods look pretty much identical.
Imperial got bought by Schrade and Colonial didn't; maybe that created a difference in their ability to maintain quality?

I had read that Imperial got purchased by Schrade. I believe Schrade made knives in Ireland before moving to China full time? Interesting point that perhaps this purchase allowed Imperial to maintain a higher level of quality of Colonial. As others have pointed out, I may have just gotten a "good era" Imperial Ireland and a "down year" Colonial Prov USA.

You're welcome. I added a bit of speculation to my previous post.
There's a thread by B Mauser (not sure of spacing, capitalization, or punctuation) about Colonial Knife Company of Providence Rhode Island that might interest you.

I think this thread was linked above! I'll definitely need to give it a more thorough read as I only skimmed it last time. I have never known much about Colonial, but the history of knives, their factories, etc is all so interesting to me. I find this true of any tool I own, generally speaking; axes, guns, knives, pressure cookers for canning, pocket watches, the list goes on and on

 

[screened porch]

I believe Schrade made knives in Ireland before moving to China full time?

They did make knives in Ireland (and Sheffield), but I believe they didn't so much move to China as go under and have their name and patterns bought and taken to China.

 

[lithicus]

They did make knives in Ireland (and Sheffield), but I believe they didn't so much move to China as go under and have their name and patterns bought and taken to China.

Ahhh that makes perfect sense. I just looked it up, but didn't realize Schrade was making knives in Ireland in 2004 and prior. I had just assumed it was post 2004 and one of the steps/stages that led to the eventual production in China.

 

[Hickory n steel]

Both if these are inexpensive shell construction knives often sold at dime stores.
The steel should be breat on both ( even the Imperial Ireland, made by Jowika I believe),but the they aren't exactly heavy duty.

Both companies had higher quality lines, Colonial had th Ranger line the Anvil line and the Old Cutler line.
Imperial had the Frontier line that were mostly made on retired Schrade equipment, with some of the lockbacks being made by Camillus.

 

[lithicus]

Both if these are inexpensive shell construction knives often sold at dime stores.
The steel should be breat on both ( even the Imperial Ireland, made by Jowika I believe),but the they aren't exactly heavy duty.

They certainly were not expensive when I got them and I believe that despite my biggest complaint (the unusually proud springs on the Colonial) they will do their job quite well

Both companies had higher quality lines, Colonial had th Ranger line the Anvil line and the Old Cutler line.
Imperial had the Frontier line that were mostly made on retired Schrade equipment, with some of the lockbacks being made by Camillus.

As I started pouring over the thread linked above more and reading into that blog post / wordpress, I've learned about these Ranger / Anvil / Old Cutler / Frontier lines. The Imperial Ireland medium stockman I have on order has an Old Timer like shield that says Frontier. So, perhaps, I am in for a treat with that one!

Much appreciated knowledge and information everyone. Glad to have learned so much with so much more to still learn

 

[afishhunter]

On the Colonial:
Clean, flush, and lube the joints. That  may improve the snap/walk 'n talk.
I would also suggest lubing the joints on the Imperial.

Concerning the back springs, I wouldn't grind them down. Too great of chance they would be to thin, and break.
Question: Are the springs proud at both the liners and covers, or just the covers? If the latter, the covers may be bent.

Concerning the loose blades: You should be able to bend a cover tab enough to remove the covers, allowing you to compress the liners at the pins, and/or peen the pins, which will eliminate the wiggle somewhat. When peening, you might want to put a 0.001 inch or smaller) feeler guage between the tang and liner to act as a spacer, to avoid making it "need pliers to open the blades" too tight. Working the blade a few times should even the clearance to 0.0005 inch on each side of the tang.
(I had to do this repair on my Imperial R.I. Barlow.)

Loose covers on shell knives can be tightened by pressing the loose tabs tight against the liners.

Both appear to have little, if any blade loss. Nice finds.

 

[lithicus]

On the Colonial:
Clean, flush, and lube the joints. That  may improve the snap/walk 'n talk.
I would also suggest lubing the joints on the Imperial.

I had cleaned, flushed, and lubed the joints on both of these prior to assessing walk'n'talk. Great advice though for anyone who may be reading this.

Concerning the back springs, I wouldn't grind them down. Too great of chance they would be to thin, and break.
Question: Are the springs proud at both the liners and covers, or just the covers? If the latter, the covers may be bent.

I agree that the springs would likely be too thin and break if ground down.
The springs are proud at the liners, end to end, on both springs. It really is bizarre how proud they are in open and closed positions and how much they protrude when in that awkward 3/4 open I usually put knives into when adding a drop of oil.
I'll have to grab some pics and upload just so everyone can see.

Concerning the loose blades: You should be able to bend a cover tab enough to remove the covers, allowing you to compress the liners at the pins, and/or peen the pins, which will eliminate the wiggle somewhat. When peening, you might want to put a 0.001 inch or smaller) feeler guage between the tang and liner to act as a spacer, to avoid making it "need pliers to open the blades" too tight. Working the blade a few times should even the clearance to 0.0005 inch on each side of the tang.
(I had to do this repair on my Imperial R.I. Barlow.)

Loose covers on shell knives can be tightened by pressing the loose tabs tight against the liners.

This is great advice and a very knowledgeable response. I've fixed some blade play on a few knives that were more obviously a pinned construction. But, with these I wasn't so sure. Might have to make a project out of removing the covers and compressing the liners (with a spacer) followed by peening to ensure it doesn't loosen back up.

Both appear to have little, if any blade loss. Nice finds.

Thank you very much! As I stated earlier, they are still more than functional knives. Especially given my intended use for them I had just never experienced springs so proud before and was curious what others experiences were. (I also wanted to know if I was on the right track with the colonial having celluloid covers or not.)

 

[r8shell]

If you're into Barlows, I recommend picking up a pair to compare. Imperials had shell construction with clipped-on bolsters, but the blades are great steel. Colonial made some very sturdy Barlow knives with true bolster pins. They feel heavier, even though the backsprings are narrow to fit the thin blades.

 

[lithicus]

Here are some pics. I feel like it looks much worse in person? Or, maybe just worse when held next to any other knife? It certainly is unquestionably my most proud backspring knife I own by a loooong shot. Not super uncomfortable in the hand and will still do the job. I was just completely caught off guard.

Fully closed:


3/4 open:


Fully open:


The backsprings on the Imperial Ireland:

 

[lithicus]

If you're into Barlows, I recommend picking up a pair to compare. Imperials had shell construction with clipped-on bolsters, but the blades are great steel. Colonial made some very sturdy Barlow knives with true bolster pins. They feel heavier, even though the backsprings are narrow to fit the thin blades.

I am quite a fan of barlows! The suggestion is much appreciated!! I feel I need to give Colonial another shot and maybe a barlow will be next!

I already have an Imperial Ireland Frontier Medium Stockman on the way. So, I'm excited to get that in pocket and put it to good use. Not expecting much given the price. But, just something I can carry and use. If it is well made regarding fit and finish, all the better. I'll probably post it in the Stockman Sunday thread with some additional information as to why I started looking for knives made in Ireland to begin with

 

[r8shell]

Here are some pics. I feel like it looks much worse in person? Or, maybe just worse when held next to any other knife? It certainly is unquestionably my most proud backspring knife I own by a loooong shot. Not super uncomfortable in the hand and will still do the job. I was just completely caught off guard.

Fully closed:


3/4 open:


Fully open:


The backsprings on the Imperial Ireland:

Haha. Okay, that's not normal. Springs a little proud and the covers rattling isn't unusual, but I haven't seen one like that before.
I sure do miss the days of digging through bins of pocketknives at the pawn shops, to weed out the baddies and choose a good one, instead of having to analyze seller's pics online.

 

[lithicus]

Haha. Okay, that's not normal.

Ok, glad I'm not crazy. I almost laughed out loud the first time I opened one of the implements because I swore the entire spring was going to lift out of the knife to where I could see into the blade well from the underside of the knife hahahhh I also half expected the snap to be crazy on this thing assuming there was an insane amount of spring tension built up. But, the snap / walk'n'talk is relatively weak as well.

I'm not upset with the purchase. I will never carry this in pocket and these will likely only see occasional use when I'm out fly fishing and feeling fancy; wanting something nicer than a sandwich for lunch Just glad to know this is likely a large exception to the norm with Colonial Prov USA. I'll gladly give them a pass on this one and maybe look into one of those barlows

 

[afishhunter]

I sure do miss the days of digging through bins of pocketknives at the pawn shops, to weed out the baddies and choose a good one,

And the > $0.⁷⁵ to $1.⁰⁰ pawnshop prices on the Imperial R.I./Ireland and Colonial shell knives.

///sigh/// ... "Those  were the days ..." Likely gone "forever" but not yet forgotten.