Combat/Camp/Survival knives, the difference?

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DaQo'tah Forge

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Now when people use terms like "Combat" , "Survival", and "Camp" to describe their knives, what connotation do we ascribe to such words?

What do we mean by the use of the terms, Combat/Camp/Survival?
well a good place to start is to define the term:"COMBAT"

Combat - A battle or fight, struggle. 1 To fight or contend with. 2 To resist. 3 To do battle; struggle: with or against( Webster's Concise Dictionary p140a)

So put simply, Combat steel is meant to kill people.

What about a knife that is called a "Camp Knife"?...well, the term "Camp" is descriptive of a planned temporary abode where people live . Camping is a planned out wilderness-living period of time.

What about the term "Survival?"....a blade that is a Survival knife is basically made for "Accidental camping"
Camping out doors with no prearranged plan to do so. Survival knives are knives are designed to fill a wide variety of wilderness emergency needs.

In a camp knife there is no need for a compass in the tang, for the word "camping" implyes a more well thought out adventure, and knife compass are notoriously less reliable than other things like a camper's GPS.

However many survival knives have built into their design, the compass,,,Indeed many people own their very lives to that cheap little compass.

I think the thing that most influences the design of a good camp knife is, Food preparation. A good camp knife is able to be a very usefull tool in the preparation of foods used during the camping trip.

I think the main influence for the Survival Knife design is in obtaining basic maintaining of life. Finding protection from the dangers of found in survival situations is what the Survival knife is all about.

Thus a survival knife has to be usefull in a wide variety of situations,,,,(although it does not have to do any one thing all that well.) It may have a saw included in its design, a saw in some situations is helpfull, but we need not think the survival knife's saw has to be of the same quality of my Black & Decker in my shop...because it does not need to be. A good survival knife may carry some fishing tackle and line,,,this has saved many a lost traveler I'm sure. A few hooks and a weight and a few feet of line might save the day, sure you have more tackle in your bass boat, but thats not the point,,,

A Combat knife on the other hand, is designed to one thing primarily. Its meant to kill people.

Right now I'm in the middle of my first combat steel, the Katana. Now the Katana is a very usefull weapon in combat, it is about the most deadly steel ever invented by man....however I'm not that sure its all that usefull in a survival situation, nor would I ever take it out and try to cut up carrots with it around the camp fire...
 
When people talk about a "combat" knife, it's not what you define it is. All these terms are used pretty loosely, but "combat knife" is roughly accepted to be a knife that a soldier might use. Since edged-weapons combat is rare among people armed with M-16s, combat knives are not single-purpose man-killers. They need to withstand the rigors of prying, digging, and other abuses soldiers heap on them.

"Fighting knife" is the term used for a purpose-designed edge-weapons-combatives knife.
 
A camping knife is a fairly mid-weight knife used around camp for utility work and preparing food. It cuts whatever needs to be cut. 3"-6" blade using 1/8"-3/16" stock. Many folders make great camp knives.

A combat knife may be required to help in digging a foxhole, clearing brush and rigging trip wire. It may be used as a camping knife or during E&E. A combat knife is a compromise between camping and fighting while being light enough to not burdone the user (who is carrying lots of stuff). 6"-8" blade using 3/16"-.25" stock.

A survival knife is whatever knife you have available in your moment of need and for that reason I think of folders because that's what I always have nearby. It can't do lots of things a fixed blade can do because of the weakness of the joint, but it's always with you.

That big knife would probably be better described as a wilderness knife -- heavy duty, it can be used to chop, pry and dig. You can't break it if you really try. 6"-10" blade using .25"+ stock.

A combat knife can be used to kill people, but the primary tool for that job is a rifle. While a fixed blade fighting knife might make a good combat knife, I don't consider a Katana to be a combat knife. While it could and has been used in combat/warfare, its most common use today is in sport/competition. In modern combat anyone entering the battlefield with a Katana is going to be taken out by someone with a rifle (or a radio in contact with air support/art'y) who may or may not take the Katana as a battlefield trinket -- don't take a knife to a gunfight.
 
A combat knife would more likely have a guard, to protect the hand when a thrust or parry is made. A camp knife does not need that really, but should be able to chop fairly well, to build a lean-to with or other temporary shelter. A suvival knife is sort of a grey area in the middle there.
 
yes, the main point being that there is a very real difference between a - Camp knife,,,,,(a knife taken with when camping)

and a Survival knife (a knife used to survive in different situations)

and a Combat knife, (Used in a fight)

While from time to time, Im sure I "could" use one for the other,,,I was thinking more along the lines of the thinking we have when we see each of such knives....

It's like, we can just tell,,,,"Thats a camp knife" or "Thats a bird knife", from across the room.,,,Somehow we have in our minds already, the key things needed in each design, and when we see them lacking, we note it

or when someone selling knives tells us, "Yes, its Black-Ops Combat knife" we somehow know the difference between that, and the Trout Knife sitting near it on the table...LOL
 
Joe Talmadge said:
When people talk about a "combat" knife, it's not what you define it is. All these terms are used pretty loosely, but "combat knife" is roughly accepted to be a knife that a soldier might use. Since edged-weapons combat is rare among people armed with M-16s, combat knives are not single-purpose man-killers. They need to withstand the rigors of prying, digging, and other abuses soldiers heap on them.

"Fighting knife" is the term used for a purpose-designed edge-weapons-combatives knife.
Click to expand...

Exactly. The Combat knife closes the gap between camp knives and pure-bred fighters. A camp knife is usually heavier and thicker, it's forward-heavy, does not necessarily have a very pronounced guard, it's single-edged and usually comes with a leather sheath.
 
Bobwhite said:
A combat knife would more likely have a guard, to protect the hand when a thrust or parry is made. A camp knife does not need that really,
Click to expand...

OK,,,good answer Bob,,,,good post.

a good example of a well made camp knife is this one here - http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=329606
It has no guard, a full tang, pinned handle,,and a forgiving steel...a very good knife to a boy scout to learn the woods with.

..Now for a question:

lets say there is a real difference between a - Combat Knife,,,and a Fighter,,,and a Weapon.....

what things would mark one from the other in your mind?

Or do you believe that all 3 terms are interchangeable?
 
DaQo'tah Forge said:
lets say there is a real difference between a - Combat Knife,,,and a Fighter,,,and a Weapon.....
Click to expand...

Joe already elaborated on the difference between a fighting and combat knife.
Every fighting knife is a weapon. An Emerson LaGriffe or Hideaway, for example, certainly qualify as purpose-built weapons too - and few people would call them fighters.
When people hear the term fighting knife, they usually think about a large fixed blade like a sub-hilt or bowie or something.
 
I made a 1/2 size Katana last week....Later I was told that the Japanese actually had things like this, that they used in close combat.

Its a full 20 inches from end to end,so it's too short to be called a sword,,and looks just like a Katana, just shorter...

If I have to use a term for it,,,I would name it a long Combat knife,,,

It's only use is in killing people,,,it's design lacks any other use,,,it cant dig a foxhole worth a darn...it cant split wood,,,,it cant chop goodies for dinner,,,,

Long handle, thin blade, very sharp, curved,,wood sheath that comes apart with rice glue,,,
It's made for stand up close quarters combat,,,,

When you look at it,,,you know that it is a "combat"...it fits the design image of such an item...Would I call it a "fighter"?...I dont know,,,perhaps not,,,

To me the image of a "fighter" is different...to me a fighter is like something you take with you down in a trench after people.

But that could be just my idea?
 
Sounds like you are talking about a wakizashi or a tanto. Not an American tanto like Cold Steel's but a traditional tanto. The Japanese sword guys could help you a lot better than me about that kind of thing.
 
one of the joys of the english language is that it can have multiple meanings for a single word, such as plane, plain, plane and plane.
plane = plane of existence
plain = simple in nature
plane = an aerocraft
plane = to remove a strip of wood


in the case of combat, there are three very distinct uses that come to mind
1 - "we did combat, close quarters, i could feel the sweat from his brow hit my farm arms as i punched him"
and
2 - "we were stranded in the middle of the combat zone for 4 weeks"
3 - "the united states was in the grips of a 2 week struggle as armed forces did combat in the middle of the desert"


1 = a physical fight, where bodies are coliding with bodies in order to do damage.
2 = the zone in wich a fight is taking place. 300 years ago, this would have meant an area where physical fights were taking place, but now it means an area where ballistics are being exchanged.
3 = the new style of "combat", where physical strugles are ended with the butt of a rifle, and much, much more preferably with a bullet. physical fights are kept to as much of a bare minimum as possible.

so in terming a knife a "combat knife", you have 2 different meanings that can be applied to the knife. one that serves the perpose of being an impliment in a physical struggle with another animal/human being,

or one that is used in the current style of "combat", meaning it is the very last thing you use to take down your enemy. meaning it will probably never get used as a weapon during the "combat".

in the case of the first, to help dilineate between the 2, it is better to call it a fighter, or a weapon, because in those two terms you are pretty well limited to a physical struggle. with the second, the term combat knife refers to its use during a struggle that does not call upon the knife to be used as a weapon. it is used to do all the chores that are required to keep a soldier fighting, be it food prep, the opening of food packages, the breaking of barriers, the severing of goods and materials that cant be accomplished otherwise (such as wires when wire cutters arent available, or there isnt time".






so what you end up with in a combat knife is something that has to be able to take a lot of varietous uses (and abuses), where as with a fighter you are required to perform such a differetn set of tasks that the design perameters are completely different. your knife needs to be able to penetrate clothing and flesh easily, but not break upon hitting bone or buttons or zippers.

with a combat knife, you end up with something that is generally thicker in nature, and hardened to be able to take abuse without chipping out.

with a fighting knife you end up with something that has a thinner edge, a pointier tip, a slimmer profile in general, and a steel that is hardened as much as possible without becomeing to brittle to chip upon hard small impacts. not much prying is required in a fight, so the knife will often reflect that.



because the current use of the word "combat" in todays society, and the current media (in the us) is to describe a zone of ballistics exchange, very few people will immediately think "oh, a physical fight" when they hear the word combat. they are more likely to think of a soldier strapped down with gear and a m-16, hardly a physical fighters uniform.
 
i think that one of the problems with trying to define a style of knife, is that by using terms like "camp" and "survival", one uses terms that are most often identified with by preference rather then the actual definition of the word.

camp means a lot of things to a lot of different people. some would say that taiking your fully furnished 5th wheel to a trailer park/camp site location, and grilling burgers on the weekend is camping.

other think that spending 5 days in the midle of the rocky mountains 50 miles form any other human being in the dead of winter is camping.

each would require a much different knife, but both could be called camp knives. with the first, you could use a knife that is designed for whitling, as it would provide a good cutting geometry for food prep and smaller cutting tasks.

for the guy in the middle of the rockies, he's gonna need something that can be used in case the "camping trip" turns into a serious survival situation.




so its hard to define a specific style of knife when the originating term (camp) is so wide ranging in its implications.



to say a skinner, a whitler, a wood working knife, a chopper, a prybar, a skinner/utility, all of those things are very direct in their meaning. "camp knife" however is defined more by the person who hears its inclination then by the definition of the knifes title.
 
My view of the terms "Camping" & "Survival" are that:

Camping is a planned stay in the wild

Survival is an accidental stay in the wild
 
if your going to try to define a style of knife for the two seperate catagories, you need to be more exacting then that though.

if i cary only 1 knife with me, i will choose a different knife if i intend to stay in a 5th wheel then if i plan to stay in in the middle of the alaskan wilderness. even if i plan out everything about the trip in regards to the alaskan wilderness, there is a good chance that things will go wrong and cause it to become a survival situation.

in the 5th wheel scenario however, i can pack whatever i want in the car, and even if i didnt, i'd have warm and shelter provided, so such tasks would be unneccesary for the knife to accomplish. a much smaller, thinner, weaker knife would be preferable, so folders and the like are an option.





generally speaking, for me, a camp knife is a knife that needs to be big enough to accomidate wood shaving and splitting, strong enough that i can pry wood with it (not excessively), and not so hard that it chips out when it hits rocks embedded in the wood. it should have a thin enough edge that it can successfully skin an animal, and prepare food with at least some level of proficiency.

that criteria allows for an incredibly wide erray of knives to be called "camp knives", from a bowie style, to the groham knives style where the blade is offset from the handle (towards the body with edge held down), to a drop point, to almost anything.


a survival knife on the other hand, for me, is a knife that cannot fail, under any circumstances. period. it needs to be able to continue to cut and maintain form through any and all tasks asked of it. if thats prying a boulder off my leg, chipping away a boulder in such a situation, chipping out hand holds in a cliff as i climb it, skinning a rabbit, splitting logs, shaving points on sticks, whatever. above all else - it cannot break.

so again, this allows for pretty much any style of knife to be a "survival knife" as long as its strong enough to take heavy and continual abuse without failure.
 
I think terms like camp, survival, hunter, combat are generic terms to describe a style of knife. You can use any knife as a survival knife. If it saves your ass in a bad situation, then I consider it a survival knife. I think Bill Moran coined the phrase "camp knife" with his large bowies. So any knife that's got an eight inch or longer is considered a camp knife. I use the terms "big game hunting and survival" knives to let people know what my specialties are as far as the type of knives I make. Big game describes my smaller knives and survival describes my larger knives. Over time the word survival has been associated with large knives. When you hear hunting knives you usually associate that with smaller knives.
Scott
 
I think the primary way that the manufacturers differentiate between these three classes is by which one is most likely to sell the most knives...

Beyond that I think the difference is the person using it and the purpose that is currently being served. If I'm down in a plane with nuthin' but my SAK, then, I guess it becomes a survival knife. (an improv camping knife, perhaps?) If I got six hoodlums jumpin' my a$$ and all I got is the same SAK, then I guess it's a fighting knife, etc.

average people overall use knives for a heckuva lot different purposes than they were made for. Yesterday I met a guy who was bragging about how his Vaquero Grande is so fantastic for filleting halibut. My best friend just bought a Bark River Commando knife from me for backpacking. Another guy I know carries a Spyderco Moran for defense. I guess I just don't see the advantage of the black or white definitions.
 
Razor,,,,,ok,,good answer...

Heres a question,,,,take whatever knife you wish to use as an example,,,and change it into a combat or fighter,,,,

now,,,what did you do to it?
What did you have to change so that when anyone looks at it they say, "Thats the combat version"

(becides change it's name)
 
DaQo'tah Forge said:
Razor,,,,,ok,,good answer...

Heres a question,,,,take whatever knife you wish to use as an example,,,and change it into a combat or fighter,,,,

now,,,what did you do to it?
What did you have to change so that when anyone looks at it they say, "Thats the combat version"

(becides change it's name)
Click to expand...
I think I see what you're getting at. I would take that same knife and make it with a 6 to 6 1/2" blade, 5" handle. Bring the finger groove up higher near the front of the handle material and use D2 steel with thinner stock. That to me is the size that best suits a soldier. That larger knife is best suited IMO to woods related activities. Most of these terms will have individual opinions on what they mean. Everyone will have a different opinion on what knife works best for the task at hand.
Scott
 
Combat knife: Medium to large utility knife with fighting as a secondary use. Double guard. Example: KBAR, Randall 1
Camp knife: Medium to large utility knife with kitchen use secondary. Single or no guard. Example: BK&T Fisk Magnum Camp, Rinaldi TTKK
Survival knife: Medium to large utility knife that compromises all of the uses above. Double, single or no guard. Example: The Mora 2000, Rinaldi Armegeddon, RTAK.

If you asked this question 20 odd years ago, the overwhelming answer for survival knife would have been: Large knife, sawteeth on spine, hollow handle with screw off butt cap. And all of your survival essentials in the handle :D
 
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