Common sense knife carry law for Virginia Commonwealth

[palerider777]

Hello,

Seven years ago I moved to Virginia from my home state of Alabama. Knife carry in Alabama was relatively simple. You could not conceal a Bowie knife and generally accepted by most Law Enforcement Officers is that a folding knife with a blade length of 4" or less would not be an issue especially if you kept it in your pocket. Well not so in the Commonwealth of Virginia. I have seen many carrying folders clipped to the outside of the pockets and guys roaming around Walmart with fixed blade hunting knives. After talking with friends and asking people what and why, I decided to find out what the law states. After talking with my "state" Senator and Rep (they call them Delegates) and being recommended by them to call my local Law Enforcement, I spoke with 3 different Desk Officers here's what I found out. The 1st officer told me that any knife with a locking mechanism was a weapon and could not be carried in a pocket or it was a conceal weapon. To top this off he also stated that if I had a Concealed Carry firearm permit that a locking knife was still illegal to carry my locking folder in the pocket! The second office told me that any folders was legal after reading to me the statues. After talking with my Senator they recommend calling the Desk Officer again this time requesting to speak to a Commanding Officer and get a written statement of their interpretation of the statues. The 3rd Officer politely told me that was not going to happen because it up to Officers discretion and the situation what was consider legal or not?!? My Rep checked and found the same thing, no one can define to the residents of the Commonwealth (that equates to a State for all you non-Colonist types, which includes me) specifically what the law mean but if you take the lowest common detonator any locking folder is a weapon and you can get arrested for carrying one in your pocket. That seem to be the common understanding up here and I believe that is what CCW instructors are stating also.

I not sure I can ask this on the forum so please don't ban me, but I am in contact with and have the interest of at least my Rep. I have considered what to ask for and I think the safest thing to do is to have the statue amended to where if I am responsible enough to carry a firearm with a CCW permit that should extend to my locking folder in my pocket. I am leery of opening the door to our legislature to define what is a legal length and type of knife is, since we do have many of the left leaning and 'protectionist" mentality in the legislature and I would bet that a pen knife would become illegal to own. I would like input from others in Virginia and ask other citizens of the Commonwealth to contact their Senators and Delegates.

In the mean time I am contacting sheath makers, especially kydex, to see if we can come up with a rig that has the folder in the open, secure and drops below winter coats so that I don't have to walk around with my knife clipped outside my pocket where it can get lost or pick "pocketed". The ironic thing about this is in Alabama wearing you knife on the outside of your pocket would almost guarantee the undivided attention of Law Enforcement!

Thanks for any input.

 

[Noswad0208]

The first person you talked to was an idiot. You can carry any knife on you, concealed or otherwise, as long as it isn't a fixed blade. The law may be different in certain cities but the state laws say that as long as it's not a "dirk, dagger, bowie, or knife of like kind" it's legal. Any folder is fine.

 

[syco1138]

Here, check the LIS( http://leg1.state.va.us/000/src.htm ), also knifeup.com has some good legal articles.

 

[Charlie_K]

The 1st officer told me that any knife with a locking mechanism was a weapon and could not be carried in a pocket or it was a conceal weapon. To top this off he also stated that if I had a Concealed Carry firearm permit that a locking knife was still illegal to carry my locking folder in the pocket! The second office told me that any folders was legal after reading to me the statues. After talking with my Senator they recommend calling the Desk Officer again this time requesting to speak to a Commanding Officer and get a written statement of their interpretation of the statues. The 3rd Officer politely told me that was not going to happen because it up to Officers discretion and the situation what was consider legal or not?!?

That's what I've been saying lately in the other threads. No matter what the law says, the officer at the time of the incident will elect himself to God status, decide whether to let you on your way or arrest you for whatever charge he can, even if the law contradicts his opinion, and leave it up to the wisdom of a judge to determine whether the charges are with or without merit; and all at your expense.

 

[killgar]

Hello,

Seven years ago I moved to Virginia from my home state of Alabama. Knife carry in Alabama was relatively simple. You could not conceal a Bowie knife and generally accepted by most Law Enforcement Officers is that a folding knife with a blade length of 4" or less would not be an issue especially if you kept it in your pocket. Well not so in the Commonwealth of Virginia. I have seen many carrying folders clipped to the outside of the pockets and guys roaming around Walmart with fixed blade hunting knives. After talking with friends and asking people what and why, I decided to find out what the law states. After talking with my "state" Senator and Rep (they call them Delegates) and being recommended by them to call my local Law Enforcement, I spoke with 3 different Desk Officers here's what I found out. The 1st officer told me that any knife with a locking mechanism was a weapon and could not be carried in a pocket or it was a conceal weapon. To top this off he also stated that if I had a Concealed Carry firearm permit that a locking knife was still illegal to carry my locking folder in the pocket! The second office told me that any folders was legal after reading to me the statues. After talking with my Senator they recommend calling the Desk Officer again this time requesting to speak to a Commanding Officer and get a written statement of their interpretation of the statues. The 3rd Officer politely told me that was not going to happen because it up to Officers discretion and the situation what was consider legal or not?!? My Rep checked and found the same thing, no one can define to the residents of the Commonwealth (that equates to a State for all you non-Colonist types, which includes me) specifically what the law mean but if you take the lowest common detonator any locking folder is a weapon and you can get arrested for carrying one in your pocket. That seem to be the common understanding up here and I believe that is what CCW instructors are stating also.

I not sure I can ask this on the forum so please don't ban me, but I am in contact with and have the interest of at least my Rep. I have considered what to ask for and I think the safest thing to do is to have the statue amended to where if I am responsible enough to carry a firearm with a CCW permit that should extend to my locking folder in my pocket. I am leery of opening the door to our legislature to define what is a legal length and type of knife is, since we do have many of the left leaning and 'protectionist" mentality in the legislature and I would bet that a pen knife would become illegal to own. I would like input from others in Virginia and ask other citizens of the Commonwealth to contact their Senators and Delegates.

In the mean time I am contacting sheath makers, especially kydex, to see if we can come up with a rig that has the folder in the open, secure and drops below winter coats so that I don't have to walk around with my knife clipped outside my pocket where it can get lost or pick "pocketed". The ironic thing about this is in Alabama wearing you knife on the outside of your pocket would almost guarantee the undivided attention of Law Enforcement!

Thanks for any input.

It seems to me that you are asking all the wrong people (friends, cops, politicians) for legal advice. I suggest that you contact a criminal defense attorney, preferably one with a lot of experience. Short of talking with your local District Attorney, or a prosecutor with a lot of experience, an experienced defense attorney is your best bet for getting accurate legal information. Never rely on friends, LEO's, or politicians, for accurate legal advice. While they might actually know a thing or two about the law, it's certainly not a job requirement that they have every weapon law memorized.

On a side note, it always amazes me when people will spend hundreds, or even thousands of dollars on a single knife, but they won't spend a fraction of that to get qualified legal advice from an actual lawyer regarding their local knife laws. If you want to know your local knife laws, go to the people who make their living by knowing (or knowing how to find) those laws, and what they actually mean.

 

[glistam]

I would second the recommendation to get a lawyer. The courts are ultimately where the law is decided.

I will say that as a guy living close to the Virginia border and having read a fair bit of case law for Virginia including some binding decisions (that among other things ruled butterfly knives as legal), this thing about "all locking folders" is utter nonsense. The only rational explanation for the cop saying that is some sort of local city ordinance, and I'd bet even that is probably being misquoted. LEOs generally have very a rudimentary understanding of knife laws in particular, and it really down to priorities. This becomes more apparent when you look at actual prosecutions for knife offenses: 99.99% of knife legal cases are secondary offenses. That is, the person was committing another crime or doing something blatantly suspicious, and the knife was found during the detainment. A concealed knife is never the primary reason for police contact. I know of only one or two cases of a concealed knife being the sole charge, and it was thrown out before trial. Please note for purposes of this statement I exclude New York City*. The upshot of this is that cops get very little experience learning the details of knife laws themselves because it's never really about the knife itself.

Honestly if you really have a politicians ear, see if he can sneak in some legislation that quietly removes the knife items from 18.2-308. KnifeRights made that happen in a few other states,

 

[palerider777]

It seems to me that you are asking all the wrong people (friends, cops, politicians) for legal advice. I suggest that you contact a criminal defense attorney, preferably one with a lot of experience. Short of talking with your local District Attorney, or a prosecutor with a lot of experience, an experienced defense attorney is your best bet for getting accurate legal information. Never rely on friends, LEO's, or politicians, for accurate legal advice. While they might actually know a thing or two about the law, it's certainly not a job requirement that they have every weapon law memorized.

On a side note, it always amazes me when people will spend hundreds, or even thousands of dollars on a single knife, but they won't spend a fraction of that to get qualified legal advice from an actual lawyer regarding their local knife laws. If you want to know your local knife laws, go to the people who make their living by knowing (or knowing how to find) those laws, and what they actually mean.

Good advice ... now would you like to help pay for it I don't have hundreds of thousands to pay for a knife let alone legal advice. So only the rich can know what their rights are? The point is I should not have to hire a lawyer at my own cost to understand what is a basic right. BTW I researched this issue through other sites, one of which gave court cases and rulings. They agree with with what the 1st officer stated. The issue is one of concealment and what is and is not a weapon. The perfectly vague phrase "and those of like kind" is the loophole that allows LEO's, DA, and Judges to make it mean what they want it to. I have also contacted our wonderful worthless State DA office on other matters and they will not tell you anything. Again if you want to donate to the case please do so or if you know a lawyer that would donate his time to help all of us understand that would be great too.

Thanks

 

[palerider777]

Here, check the LIS( http://leg1.state.va.us/000/src.htm ), also knifeup.com has some good legal articles.

Yep the section is 18.2-308. Carrying concealed weapons; exceptions; penalty. the issue is the vague phrase "or (v) any weapon of like kind as those enumerated in this subsection, he is guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor." The argument is that any knife can be and has been linked back to a Bowie, switchblade etc ...depending on the Officers, Prosecuting Attorney and Judges judgement.

 

[palerider777]

The first person you talked to was an idiot. You can carry any knife on you, concealed or otherwise, as long as it isn't a fixed blade. The law may be different in certain cities but the state laws say that as long as it's not a "dirk, dagger, bowie, or knife of like kind" it's legal. Any folder is fine.

Agreed however it only takes one idiot to ruin you life. Also Its a state statue 18.2-308. Carrying concealed weapons; exceptions; penalty. the issue is the vague phrase "or (v) any weapon of like kind as those enumerated in this subsection, he is guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor." The argument is that any knife can be and has been linked back to a Bowie, switchblade etc ...depending on the Officers, Prosecuting Attorney and Judges judgement.

BTW it about concealment not the style of knife, fixed or folder "If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation,..." It is legal to carry a fixed blade as long as it not concealed. I have observed this occurring several times.

 

[palerider777]

I would second the recommendation to get a lawyer. The courts are ultimately where the law is decided.

I will say that as a guy living close to the Virginia border and having read a fair bit of case law for Virginia including some binding decisions (that among other things ruled butterfly knives as legal), this thing about "all locking folders" is utter nonsense. The only rational explanation for the cop saying that is some sort of local city ordinance, and I'd bet even that is probably being misquoted. LEOs generally have very a rudimentary understanding of knife laws in particular, and it really down to priorities. This becomes more apparent when you look at actual prosecutions for knife offenses: 99.99% of knife legal cases are secondary offenses. That is, the person was committing another crime or doing something blatantly suspicious, and the knife was found during the detainment. A concealed knife is never the primary reason for police contact. I know of only one or two cases of a concealed knife being the sole charge, and it was thrown out before trial. Please note for purposes of this statement I exclude New York City*. The upshot of this is that cops get very little experience learning the details of knife laws themselves because it's never really about the knife itself.

Honestly if you really have a politicians ear, see if he can sneak in some legislation that quietly removes the knife items from 18.2-308. KnifeRights made that happen in a few other states,

Right now I don't have a lawyer I know and trust and don't have the money try one out.

Rational though did not have anything to do with the conversation with the 1st LEO, as he also suggest wearing my jacket open in the winter (it was 12 degrees the day I talked to him) so my knife could be seen! The statue in question is the state law 18.2-308... not local ordinances. Agreed that this is usually a secondary offenses. However I had an issue in Alabama during a traffic stop with and Officer trying make a case out of my CS Scimitar 4" folder. Knowing the law along with little details like asking him for his PID, not his badge number, his division, his
Commanding Officer PID, rank and name cased him to pause and reconsider his action. I would like to know what my rights are here without going to court or having to pay to know my rights.

My Delegate did check with their legal services and they could not define this any better that the LEOs did due to various rulings.

I will press your idea about removing this section for 18.2-308 but the more people that call their Senator and Delegate the better. I will also contact KnifeRights. Thanks for that lead.

 

[palerider777]

That's what I've been saying lately in the other threads. No matter what the law says, the officer at the time of the incident will elect himself to God status, decide whether to let you on your way or arrest you for whatever charge he can, even if the law contradicts his opinion, and leave it up to the wisdom of a judge to determine whether the charges are with or without merit; and all at your expense.

Yea, I support Law Enforcement however with some it went for protect and serve to a more "militaristic" stance.

A couple of thing that can help out in those situations, This advise came from a Police Chief while teaching CJ courses. 1. Know your right and don't be afraid to politely state them. That is what I am trying to determine here. 2. Ask for the LEOs PID (Personal ID) number not his badge number, it signals you know something about the LEO's operating environment, 3. Ask what division their attached to, command officer, his rank and PID. 4. Ask politely the statue and how it is being violated.

This is my own advice, from years ago when I was in situations where I encountered such issues... If the above fails politely hold out your hands and state "Arrest me. I so want you to arrest me and take me in. P l e a s e... do so." I had a couple of LEOs that had second thoughts about their course of action when that was stated. Use that at your discretion as that may not fly in today environment as that may be considered 'agressive' and warrant the use of force in some, not all, LEO's minds.

 

[glistam]

However I had an issue in Alabama during a traffic stop with and Officer trying make a case out of my CS Scimitar 4" folder. Knowing the law along with little details like asking him for his PID, not his badge number, his division, his
Commanding Officer PID, rank and name cased him to pause and reconsider his action. I would like to know what my rights are here without going to court or having to pay to know my rights.

Technically this would fail my criteria and still be secondary offense. A) You were stopped because you broke the traffic laws. No, I'm not calling you a criminal but yes you technically broke a non-knife law, or else he'd never have spoken to you. B) Even so, how did he even become aware of the Scimitar? Most people who get pulled over for speeding don't get searched.

 

[md02geist]

http://www.knifeup.com/virginia-knife-laws/

 

[glistam]

1. Know your right and don't be afraid to politely state them. That is what I am trying to determine here. 2. Ask for the LEOs PID (Personal ID) number not his badge number, it signals you know something about the LEO's operating environment, 3. Ask what division their attached to, command officer, his rank and PID. 4. Ask politely the statue and how it is being violated.

That is some great advice.

 

[Charlie_K]

Technically this would fail my criteria and still be secondary offense. A) You were stopped because you broke the traffic laws. No, I'm not calling you a criminal but yes you technically broke a non-knife law, or else he'd never have spoken to you. B) Even so, how did he even become aware of the Scimitar? Most people who get pulled over for speeding don't get searched.

More and more people who commit even minor traffic infractions are being told to exit their vehicle and searched in the name of officer's safety.

 

[killgar]

Good advice ... now would you like to help pay for it I don't have hundreds of thousands to pay for a knife let alone legal advice. So only the rich can know what their rights are? The point is I should not have to hire a lawyer at my own cost to understand what is a basic right. BTW I researched this issue through other sites, one of which gave court cases and rulings. They agree with with what the 1st officer stated. The issue is one of concealment and what is and is not a weapon. The perfectly vague phrase "and those of like kind" is the loophole that allows LEO's, DA, and Judges to make it mean what they want it to. I have also contacted our wonderful worthless State DA office on other matters and they will not tell you anything. Again if you want to donate to the case please do so or if you know a lawyer that would donate his time to help all of us understand that would be great too.

Thanks

In life, there is the way we want things to be, and then there is the way things are.

It would be nice if we didn't need to hire lawyers to explain the law, but if you want a professional opinion on the law, from someone who makes their living dealing with such laws, that's the way it is.

It would be nice if there were no silly laws restricting what knives people can carry. But there are.

It would be nice if such laws could be overturned by simply calling an elected representative. But if you inquire with Kniferights.org, you will find that it takes a lot more to get knife laws repealed, and it costs a lot of money.

Have you called any attorney's in your area to find out how much an hour of consultation would cost, because a person certainly doesn't have to be rich to pay for an hour of a lawyers time. And it doesn't take days for an attorney to find and explain a few knife laws.

Contrary to popular belief, not all lawyers work for big rich law firms that charge hundreds of dollars an hour. There are a lot of lawyers in this country (and I'll bet there are a lot in Virginia), and they are all trying to make a living and pay their bills. If you call around you might find some lawyers with very reasonable, and affordable rates who are more than happy to help you.

If you can't afford to consult an attorney, and if you have any doubts about your local laws or exactly what they say, the only advice I would give you is to use your best judgement, and to err on the side of caution by interpreting the law in the most restrictive way possible, then act accordingly.

Although I support your cause and hope that you eventually prevail in changing your local laws, I won't be sending any money your way. I already donate to Kniferights.org, and that's the extent of my financial contributions. But who knows, maybe one day Kniferights will take on the laws of Virginia and succeed in getting them repealed. One can always hope. Best of luck to you .

 

[killgar]

http://www.knifeup.com/virginia-knife-laws/

I don't know about every state, but the way that website describes California's knife laws is wrong. Specifically, the part about dirks, daggers, and stilettos.

California penal code 16100 very specifically defines what a "dirk" and "dagger" are. Such items are defined as "a knife or other instrument with or without a handguard capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon". This definition includes ANY fixed-blade (including bowie knives), as well as folding knives with the blade in the fully-open position (including slipjoints).

California penal code 21310 very specifically states what makes such items illegal. Such items are illegal to carry CONCEALED, period. It is perfectly legal to own and OPENLY carry any item that CA pc 16100 defines as a "dirk" or "dagger".

As far as "stilettos", the word "stiletto" appears only once in the California penal code (CA pc 16340), and that law only says that "stilettos" are illegal if they are disguised in canes or similar items. There are no laws in California making it illegal to own or carry "stilettos".

My point is, since that website incorrectly describes California's knife laws, there is always the chance that it is incorrectly describing the knife laws of other states, and misleading people in the process. All the more reason for people to read their actual local knife laws direct from their local penal code. And if they still have any doubts, to consult an attorney, rather than take legal advice from a website created by unknown persons with questionable legal qualifications.

 

[zzyzzogeton]

That website is basically correct for Texas but it has an error on it - Says that gravity knives are illegal to even possess in Texas, which is incorrect as the only time the word "gravity" occurred in Texas law was in the definition of a switchblade. Since Texas legalized switchblade carry, even that reference to gravity is gone.

 

[md02geist]

I don't know about every state, but the way that website describes California's knife laws is wrong. Specifically, the part about dirks, daggers, and stilettos.

California penal code 16100 very specifically defines what a "dirk" and "dagger" are. Such items are defined as "a knife or other instrument with or without a handguard capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon". This definition includes ANY fixed-blade (including bowie knives), as well as folding knives with the blade in the fully-open position (including slipjoints).

California penal code 21310 very specifically states what makes such items illegal. Such items are illegal to carry CONCEALED, period. It is perfectly legal to own and OPENLY carry any item that CA pc 16100 defines as a "dirk" or "dagger".

As far as "stilettos", the word "stiletto" appears only once in the California penal code (CA pc 16340), and that law only says that "stilettos" are illegal if they are disguised in canes or similar items. There are no laws in California making it illegal to own or carry "stilettos".

My point is, since that website incorrectly describes California's knife laws, there is always the chance that it is incorrectly describing the knife laws of other states, and misleading people in the process. All the more reason for people to read their actual local knife laws direct from their local penal code. And if they still have any doubts, to consult an attorney, rather than take legal advice from a website created by unknown persons with questionable legal qualifications.

Yeah I can't say that it's 100% correct for sure...I know that as far as VA knives goes, it's correct as far as I'm aware. Just threw it out there for a quick reference point.

 

[lazy otter]

Locking folders are fine in VA just know that there maybe a local ordance on blade length. Fixed blades can be carried open I do this all the time in the city with large bowies , daggers ect. Butterfly knives are okay as case law made them okay. Also VA issues CHP not CCW which is just a pain! I can carry a handgun concealed but not a fixed blade? Oh and autos are a big no no in VA. Most Leo's don't know or think they know the knife laws but if you aren't doing anything wrong they won't stop you just to see what you got...it's not NYC...lol! The state police website has the answers. VA law is also based on case law so thing can change but I wouldn't worry about a folder at all.