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Company heat treat vs custom heat treat
- Thread starter noob93
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It depends. That's probably an unsurprising reply, but it really does.
Getting the most out of a steel during heat treatment comes with a risk. If it's too finicky to get spot on, major manufacturers risk needing to bin whole batches that didn't turn out.
If it DOES turn out (which it should) and they manage to get a couple more points of hardness out of the steel, then manufacturers will need to deal with all of the chipping and breakage issues caused by people who shouldn't have nice things. Both scenarios increase cost.
Conversely, custom makers are arguably in a better position to push their heat treating a little further. If it goes wrong they're not thousands of dollars out of pocket and their customers are probably less likely to make a YouTube video of them throwing it into old car doors
Usually, quality brands do a pretty good job of getting a high performance result out of heat treating.
There are companies that really know how to get the most out of a steel during heat treatment (Buck's 420HC comes to mind, as does Opinel's 12C27M). There are so called custom makers who don't understand why you shouldn't treat 52100 like it's 1080. There are also custom makers who know exactly what they want from a steel and how to get it. Some are leading the way with heat treating steels they specialise in.
Edit: did I completely misinterpret the question? If so, my answer is...it depends
Getting the most out of a steel during heat treatment comes with a risk. If it's too finicky to get spot on, major manufacturers risk needing to bin whole batches that didn't turn out.
If it DOES turn out (which it should) and they manage to get a couple more points of hardness out of the steel, then manufacturers will need to deal with all of the chipping and breakage issues caused by people who shouldn't have nice things. Both scenarios increase cost.
Conversely, custom makers are arguably in a better position to push their heat treating a little further. If it goes wrong they're not thousands of dollars out of pocket and their customers are probably less likely to make a YouTube video of them throwing it into old car doors
Usually, quality brands do a pretty good job of getting a high performance result out of heat treating.
There are companies that really know how to get the most out of a steel during heat treatment (Buck's 420HC comes to mind, as does Opinel's 12C27M). There are so called custom makers who don't understand why you shouldn't treat 52100 like it's 1080. There are also custom makers who know exactly what they want from a steel and how to get it. Some are leading the way with heat treating steels they specialise in.
Edit: did I completely misinterpret the question? If so, my answer is...it depends
It depends. That's probably an unsurprising reply, but it really does.
Getting the most out of a steel during heat treatment comes with a risk. If it's too finicky to get spot on, major manufacturers risk needing to bin whole batches that didn't turn out.
If it DOES turn out (which it should) and they manage to get a couple more points of hardness out of the steel, then manufacturers will need to deal with all of the chipping and breakage issues caused by people who shouldn't have nice things. Both scenarios increase cost.
Conversely, custom makers are arguably in a better position to push their heat treating a little further. If it goes wrong they're not thousands of dollars out of pocket and their customers are probably less likely to make a YouTube video of them throwing it into old car doors
Usually, quality brands do a pretty good job of getting a high performance result out of heat treating.
There are companies that really know how to get the most out of a steel during heat treatment (Buck's 420HC comes to mind, as does Opinel's 12C27M). There are so called custom makers who don't understand why you shouldn't treat 52100 like it's 1080. There are also custom makers who know exactly what they want from a steel and how to get it. Some are leading the way with heat treating steels they specialise in.
Edit: did I completely misinterpret the question? If so, my answer is...it depends
Haha I figured I would get a few it depends type of answers and fairly so. What about your standard industrial ht company compared to a maker with a very good ht? would that be a bit closer?
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"better results" is what makes this a hard question to answer.
Will (good) production companies get consistent ht with known results - yes.
Do they often play it safe and keep steel a little softer (oversimplifying, but trading toughness for edge retention) - yes.
Would I ask anything more of a production blade - no.
Can a (good) custom maker modify the ht protocol to optimize for certain characteristics - yes. As always, everything is a trade-off. They can prioritize edge retention over toughness etc. And this doesn't even start the discussion on how blade geometry impacts all these things as well...
I really appreciate the access we have on BF to the custom makers. HT is just one part of the equation, and meaning no disrespect, it is not necessarily something every custom maker focuses on. So a custom maker that "does his own" heat treat might be good, bad, or somewhere in between. Possibly no different from sending it out to Peter's - which offers known/reproducible quality control. If you are specifically interested in heat treat, there are some makers who really strive to get the most from the blades and they might be a good place to start your hunt.
Will (good) production companies get consistent ht with known results - yes.
Do they often play it safe and keep steel a little softer (oversimplifying, but trading toughness for edge retention) - yes.
Would I ask anything more of a production blade - no.
Can a (good) custom maker modify the ht protocol to optimize for certain characteristics - yes. As always, everything is a trade-off. They can prioritize edge retention over toughness etc. And this doesn't even start the discussion on how blade geometry impacts all these things as well...
I really appreciate the access we have on BF to the custom makers. HT is just one part of the equation, and meaning no disrespect, it is not necessarily something every custom maker focuses on. So a custom maker that "does his own" heat treat might be good, bad, or somewhere in between. Possibly no different from sending it out to Peter's - which offers known/reproducible quality control. If you are specifically interested in heat treat, there are some makers who really strive to get the most from the blades and they might be a good place to start your hunt.
All very valid points you have and I must agree I wouldn't expect a production company to risk thousands of dollars for a little extra. What makers are you talking about specifically?
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This all depends on many factors. there is no easy answer. each maker is different. production blades are mass produced, and mass heat treated. some are sent to better heat treat facilities than others, but overall mass produced knives won't have the optimal heat treat that a custom maker CAN focus on if that particular maker is excellent at that particular task with that particular steel.
There are some individual custom makers that excel at heat treatment, some that outsource and others who do it themselfs and believe they are good enough.
can anyone name off some custom makers that excel at HT? ill start by naming the one i hear alot about who goes by "Phil Wilson" which seems to work with a lot of super steel types.
will all custom maker always have an optimal heat treat over production knives? NO
There are some individual custom makers that excel at heat treatment, some that outsource and others who do it themselfs and believe they are good enough.
can anyone name off some custom makers that excel at HT? ill start by naming the one i hear alot about who goes by "Phil Wilson" which seems to work with a lot of super steel types.
will all custom maker always have an optimal heat treat over production knives? NO
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Custom HT with custom protocol and 2 blades max.....custom results ....how high you gone pay these passion :thumbup:
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- Jul 3, 2014
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Cutting Nails and cinderblocks with CPM3V and zwear treated by Peters here.
Dont have the talent, stuff or time to do heat treat and so far dont see the point with the performance. However thinks its awsome people take the time to do it themselves.
Dont have the talent, stuff or time to do heat treat and so far dont see the point with the performance. However thinks its awsome people take the time to do it themselves.
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You do realize that there are knife makers guilds around the world with members that eat, sleep, and live for making knives, right?
Some makers?
Sure!
Many?
No way!!!
hookahhabib
Gold Member
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- Feb 24, 2011
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Based on my limited experience, I think the answer to your question is most definitely not.
Just as some knife people are only into the aesthetics, or utility, or the engineering and science aspect, I think you'll see the same variety with custom makers. Some are building for beauty, some are building for our performance, some are building what they've decided their customer base likes, and pretty much everything in between. The makers who are really into the science and mechanics of knives, the makers who take time to research steels and their performance and then pursue actually using those materials are probably going to take the extra time and care to make sure that they do a good heat treatment.
I've seen other makers who seem to choose and stick to using a steel simply because it's easy to work with and takes a nice finish. In those cases I imagine you'll sometimes get a great HT and other times not so much, depending on the maker.
Not every maker spends hours on the forums and get to learn about some fancy new high performance HT protocol that has been getting great results. Some might be using the manufacturer HT protocol which may or may not be great for use in a knife (remember many steels in use were not designed and manufactured for use in knives and as a result protocols from the companies could be totally missing that steels true performance potential.
And then what about the guys doing it by eye and "feel"? With results ranging from bad to amazing.
My main point is that there is such a variety in makers, their philosophies of building, their knowledge, their skill levels, their equipment, etc that I don't think you can say custom makers will always get you better results.
People like Dwayne Dwyer, Phil Wilson, BanTang or Brad Southard, to name very few (there are so many more), fit into the category where they appreciate and use a wide variety of different blade materials even if they are sometimes way more difficult to work with. You can probably count on getting a good HT from them.
There are so many makers out there and many who do great heat treatments (as well as the opposite)...your best bet if looking for something specific is to just research the forums, research social media, and even reach out and talk to the makers themselves - based on my experience most are happy to talk...
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The company is going to aim at their typical customer .That includes those who shouldn't have knives !
2 points difference in hardness I certainly can notice . So if the company gives 58 HRc and you prefer 60 then find a custom maker .Consider all the variables not just hardness including your type of use.
2 points difference in hardness I certainly can notice . So if the company gives 58 HRc and you prefer 60 then find a custom maker .Consider all the variables not just hardness including your type of use.
Cobalt
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No way to generalize like that. Some companies know HT very well, some custom makers know HT very well, then you have examples of both that suck. You cannot claim one way or another. In general I would trust the HT of a custom maker who does his own HT over a manufacturer that sends it out to be done. However, there are manufacturers that have it down pat. Look at GSO and ESEE. They send out their knives for HT and the knives come back near perfect. Rc does not have as much to do with good HT either. I see some talk of Rc, but Rc is more dependent of end use than anything else. A hard use chopper will run lower Rc than a kitchen tomato slicer. But both can have an excellent HT.
If they are both good they are both equal, but from my experience factory is much more consistently good. Buying a custom is really a gamble, unless you had a previous good experience with a specific custom maker. I would say any of the powder steels multiply that "custom gamble" by a lot...
Any old Al Mar, or even a Parker brother style cheapo, if made in a Seki city factory in Aus-6, Aus-8, or with 440 stamped on it, will be just outstanding... These can have edges that will be holding up even at 8-10 degrees per side while chopping wood, with no visible damage (especially Al Mars, but Parkers too)... Most factory made stuff, no matter what the price, including Randall, is very consistent and usually very good... Customs are really hit and miss, including some of the best names... "Custom" wise I trust Lile's 440 and D-2, Colin Cox 440, and Steve Voorhis 5160 at slightly more open angles (16-18 per side, instead of my preferred standard of 12 on factory stainless), and that's about it from what I got (I would place customs roughly at around 30% pass in my experience, while factory stainless is above 90%)...
A lot of the time a custom will look like it's doing fine at moderately thin angles, but then run a nail along the edge, and it shaves nail material where the factory is totally pristine from many times more the amount of work chopping wood... Curiously, this tendency to micro-fold doesn't go away even if you open the edge angle considerably, especially with the powder steels... Customs in plain non-powder 440 that fail tend to fail as spectacularly as plain 440 from Seki city is spectacularly good in a Parker Bros cheapo...
Gaston
I don't know if youv just had bad luck or what but that's pretty crappy news if not. I get that a custom knife maker has their own ideas of what they like but steel is the heart and soul of any blade. I mean your telling me these high end custom guys are getting it wrong and a factory in Japan is just killin it? If this is the case I'm a bit depressed .I mean factory knives are cool but iv always liked things that are unique and not in a bad way.
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Unless you name specifics...there is no answer to this question.
Like another maker said earlier....some companies run 1095 at 55Hrc..that's stupid low.
Other companies run the same steel at 59Hrc that's kind of normal.
Some makers run that same steel at 57hRC which is slightly low but not terrible.
Then there are makers that run that steel at Hrc62 which might be a touch on the high side depending on the knife and intended use.
Most "custom" makers (though not all by a long shot) tend to run their Hrc's up a little higher than most production companies.
Whether this is "better" is another question alltogether.
Like another maker said earlier....some companies run 1095 at 55Hrc..that's stupid low.
Other companies run the same steel at 59Hrc that's kind of normal.
Some makers run that same steel at 57hRC which is slightly low but not terrible.
Then there are makers that run that steel at Hrc62 which might be a touch on the high side depending on the knife and intended use.
Most "custom" makers (though not all by a long shot) tend to run their Hrc's up a little higher than most production companies.
Whether this is "better" is another question alltogether.
Custom HT ... becomes a practice when you want maximum of steel which give the default geometry according to the task ... so variable.
Now if you follow ... here is a handful of examples of individuals who are eager and willing to push the limits of metallurgy believing in science ....
Photo Hardness not asked to express height ... but the attention it will devote particular custom blank and the other with the respect a piece of steel.
Regular bad english Joe :thumbup:
Now if you follow ... here is a handful of examples of individuals who are eager and willing to push the limits of metallurgy believing in science ....
Photo Hardness not asked to express height ... but the attention it will devote particular custom blank and the other with the respect a piece of steel.
Regular bad english Joe :thumbup:
I got ya I think what you mean is certain makers ht differently to compliment their preferred geometry.