Constructive Criticism of Pakistani Knives

R

rafeey

Joined
May 30, 2016
Messages
6
Hi Everyone,
I am from Wazirabad, Pakistan and a knife lover like ya all. I know a lot of knife makers and artisans (both in the family and in the city). After reading a lot of posts in this forum regarding shady quality of Pakistani knives, I'd like to invite you share your honest opinions and suggestions about these knives so that i can help them make better knives.
I hope you'll share your thoughts for constructively because lets remember that, if it wasn't for our love for knives and knife making , we wont be here. wont we? :)
 
Both points above are great... I really like the look of Pakistani knives but the fit & finish is atrocious, burrs everywhere and smelly oil on NIB knives.
Also you need to say what the steel is (generally Damascus). Until you tell what it is exactly, everyone will call it tin can mixed with railroad tracks even if it might not be so...
Also when it's acid etched Damascus, call it as is. The patterns used to be really ugly and faint but I saw prettier ones lately.

Also the springs are too hard on mine... you have to keep your hands far away to make sure you don't get cut ... look at Victorinox or Rough Rider how they fine tune their slipjoint springs.
 
Your skill of the English language is superb! Are you originally from Pakistan?

I've owned a few knives..mainly SAK type folders, that are clearly marked Pakistan. Not sure what steel was used but, they seem decently sharp by any standard and just OK built.

Welcome to BF!
 
I think this is a good question well asked and I think it is an important thread.

One of the biggest issues affecting knives made in Pakistan is, to put it bluntly, honesty. We have seen dishonesty about the materials used, the heat treatment and blade hardness, the overall quality of the knives and the place of manufacture. I am sure that there are talented and honest Pakistani knife makers out there, but they all carry the same tarnished reputation. I think individual makers could overcome this issue by doing the following:
- post a complete work in progress thread documenting the knife build from start to finish. Include a complete and honest materials list. Include photographs or video of each stage in the process. At least two knives should be made as part of this.
- Be extremely honest about the materials. Don't say the steel is 1095 if it isn't but is something similar. Specify that it is a steel similar to 1095 and provide composition information.
- concentrate on the basics. Clean grinds, useful designs, quality fit and finish.
- explain and document the heat treatment.
- take one of your completed knives and do video testing. Nothing flashy, just cutting cardboard and carving timber, then show the edge.
- send the other knife to a respected bladeforums member who can test the Rockwell hardness, inspect the quality of the damascus, inspect the fit and finish etc and test the knife in use.

That might help with the reputation issue but it won't make people buy the knives. They also need to be good value. In this case that probably means delivering something that is both very useful and a bit unique. Personally I don't want a copy of an American style knife that's made in Pakistan. I *might* be interested in a reinvention of a traditional Pakistani knife if it's good quality, value for money and useful.
 
A lot of brand management and trust building.

Customers need to believe they are getting a consistent, high value, high quality item.
That comes from track record of delivering a consistent, high value, high quality item.
 
sideways said:
A lot of brand management and trust building.

Customers need to believe they are getting a consistent, high value, high quality item.
That comes from track record of delivering a consistent, high value, high quality item.
Click to expand...

you said it so much better than I did! :D
 
Agreed with those above, overcoming the stigma won't be easy but is plausible if someone does what Chris Larkin recommends.


Personally, if I can't trust what materials are used then it is a deal breaker for me. Consistency consistency consistency.


Fixing Pakistan's reputation on a whole will likely take many years of transparency and consistent quality. An individual maker could build their own reputation faster by doing all the things mentioned.
 
Another factor (I think) is how and where the knives are sold. My first exposure to Pakistani knives was at a gun show. The gentleman selling them had one of the largest displays at the show, and I looked at dozens of the knives he was selling. Most were what I'll call "Damascus style" but with no further info about the blade steel. Most were fixed blades that looked straight out of a fantasy movie set, although some had more of a traditional Bowie look. The folders were pretty rough, to be honest.

However, what seemed immediately suspicious to me was the "Made in USA" banner above his display. There was no indication on the knives themselves of this, and the prices seemed extremely low for what were being advertised as handmade Damascus knives. None of this was much different from the Pakistani knives advertised on Amazon and eBay. While I can't say that they are necessarily being misrepresented, sellers of these knives don't seem to offer much information up front.
 
I'd love some useable authentic blades from that region. Useable as in proper tang, longer handles, decent steel and heat treatment. I'd also would like the materials used to be non toxic I'm especially thinking of the lead dye used on Pakistani leather and preserving chemicals in wood.

I've no need for copies of western or Japanese patterns (unless you can do them better than the originals) and I dislike things made from "hardened" mild steel "that cuts everything, even iron"

But that's just me and if there weren't a market for the things which currently come out of Pakistan they wouldn't make them.

It would be cool if you could change your industry just to suit my needs but thats kind of unrealistic. No?
:-)
 
I'd look at what certain Chinese companies are doing to overcome the low quality stigma. SanRenMu, Enlan and Ganzo on the low end and Reate and Kizer on the high end.
 
One thing that would help alot is if you were to make a few knives in an American or European steel, imo that would kind of help the buyer if they knew that you were at least using a steel they are comfortable with and have experience with. I'm not sure how much different equipment it would take to work with some steels but you could still use 1095 or even cheaper stainlesses
 
I can't find the gentleman with a cursory search of the custom fixed blades exchange (I'm at work), but I know I recently saw two posts by a new maker from Pakistan, and he does just what Chris Larrikin suggests by showing a bunch of progression photos, & maybe even vids as well. This way, there is no question as to the construction, at least....& this man obviously did this to combat the stigma of knives made in Pakistan.

If I see a knife I love by this maker, I'll buy it without hesitation, even though he doesn't have a BF reputation of any sort yet. I hope this maker (I hope someone can recall or find his name & give him a true mention here, I feel bad I couldn't find him just now) helps to ignite some change in both performance & perception...think of all the great works we're missing out on from that region.
 
I've owned two knives from Pakistan. I found them on the Bay (one listing of two knives for $15 USD), they resembles Sardinian pattadessa knives, and had (purportedly) scales made of camel bone. The over all lines of the knives were pleasing, and there were no gaps where scale met bolster, and no proud pins. I did not keep them because they were too heavy for my tastes, and the backsprings were exceedingly weak. There were no maker marks, there was a VERY faint etching of Pakistan on one side of one of the blades. The fit and finish were fine, overall, probably on par with a mid-range Buck knife. The blades came fairly sharp, but there were noticeable grind marks on the spine. I would rate the knives that I had at about 6 out of 10, overall. This is not indicative of all knives from Pakistan, only the ones I have experience with.
 
From what I see and have experienced in Pakistani knives, the makers tend to focus too much on looks vs quality.

For the most part these knives are really only worth the handle materials and custom filework.
If they focused on making a simple knife with quality steels and good fit and finish, they'd be surprised that a proper knife will sell just as well .
 
VanDammet said:
I can't find the gentleman with a cursory search of the custom fixed blades exchange (I'm at work), but I know I recently saw two posts by a new maker from Pakistan, and he does just what Chris Larrikin suggests by showing a bunch of progression photos, & maybe even vids as well. This way, there is no question as to the construction, at least....& this man obviously did this to combat the stigma of knives made in Pakistan.

If I see a knife I love by this maker, I'll buy it without hesitation, even though he doesn't have a BF reputation of any sort yet. I hope this maker (I hope someone can recall or find his name & give him a true mention here, I feel bad I couldn't find him just now) helps to ignite some change in both performance & perception...think of all the great works we're missing out on from that region.
Click to expand...
He posted pictures of someone making a bad knife, but it could be any number of his employees. He was banned here a while back for various reasons, including pretending to be a knife maker. I have no idea why they are letting him prey on the forum again.

Pakistan knives will never be good until they are made out of quality materials, which isn't likely to ever happen, not when there is money to be made. Selling crap to dull westerners who know nothing about knives is super profitable.
 
Rat Finkenstein said:
He posted pictures of someone making a bad knife, but it could be any number of his employees. He was banned here a while back for various reasons, including pretending to be a knife maker. I have no idea why they are letting him prey on the forum again.

Pakistan knives will never be good until they are made out of quality materials, which isn't likely to ever happen, not when there is money to be made. Selling crap to dull westerners who know nothing about knives is super profitable.
Click to expand...

The way I see it, if they could just get some 1095 and make simple knives ( simple like condor knives ) they would make just as much money without having to use the costly brass and stag, or have to put filework onto the spine of each knife.
To me it seems like it takes more work to make the junk they currently make ( just think of how much extra time it takes to cut and weld on a false section of tang )
Ontario old hickory knives are 10X better in quality almost exclusively due to the steel used, and cost just as much or less than the typical Pakistani flea market knives.
 
I think that having a personal brand is one of the biggest things a maker can do. Not a shop, but having an individual craftsman back his work. Another major aspect is knowing who you are selling to. Many makers just sell shiny tourist trinkets. But knife enthusiasts and even just knife users want a knife that can do some work. Take a look at Condor and Tramontia. Honest working knives. Condor tried to make knives for "fashion" but with help they have moved to a more utility market. A little rough edge on a working knife is not a problem. A rough edge on an "art" knife is. As for materials, honesty is a pretty important part, If its hilux truck springs, then sell it as such. The more people know about the process, the easier it is to gauge what to expect.

Bottom line, you won't sell knives as "made in Pakistan" you will sell knives as "Made by Tim who happens to live in Pakistan" By allowing individuals to shine, you allow the competition to improve everyone's work.
 
+1 to what gadget geek said, I like if an individual maker stands behind his work, good materials and clear information about materials and blade steel. The makers who have good quality knives will increase their presence and reputation. The ones who just make a pretty looking piece for quick profit are the ones who have stigmatized the "made in Pakistan" label. The first thing I think is low quality steel from a fender or such and the only thing good it will do is look neat as a wall hanger or in display case. There are good Pakistsni makes out there, but overcoming the bad reputation will be hard and take time, just like some Chinese companies are slowly doing. Now I am at least willing to scrutinize and educate myself about some Chinese knives, not necessarily buy, but use caution when considering one.
 
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