Contrarian viewpoint on WharncliffsIf

[Mark Spark]

Is it just me or is anyone else uneasy about this business of Wharncliffs for self-defense? I have several reasons for thinking this is a dead end fad:
1. There were few if any warnies used in historical times for combat. But people’s lives depended on blades back then. If it’s so good, why did no one use it?
2. When you cut with a normal curved tip, as the cutting edge slides away from the hand, the loss of leverage is cancelled by the increased cutting efficiency of the curve. Result is good slashing and cutting.
3. Slashing with a straight edge is likely to likelier to “stall” or hang up than with a curved edge. This was formerly thought to leave the slasher dangerously vulnerable.
4. A Wharncliff naturally has a fragile point. I remember when this too was thought to be a bad thing.
If you don’t believe me, here’s an interesting test you can do yourself, and it’s pretty general and repeatable.
Get a length of 1x2 Douglas fir at Home Depot or somewhere. Slice about 1” chips off the end. Compare a Wharncliff with an traditional blade like a PM2. See what I mean? The key here is that Doug fir is very hard and slicing chips off it takes a lot of force. How well a knife does in this test depends on thickness behind the edge, edge angle, blade shape, sharpness, and handle comfort. Edge holding will come into play in <10 slices, so beware if you keep your knives hair-shaving sharp.

 

[Therom]

I don’t like knives for self defense but have trained in different martial arts, including a couple related to knife fighting.

IMO wharnecliff is not the best “generic” blade for self defense but it is a good one if used in the limit of certain technics.

mas a rule I would say, if you train to fight with a blade shape, this blade shape will be good.
I you don’t try with a knife, any blade shape will be poor... but you will still have a knife and will always be an advantage of your opponent doesn’t have one
Last rule, don’t go into a knife against knife fight

 

[Sal Glesser]

Hi Mark,

Welcome to our forum.

Certainly a controversial opinion. Could be an interesting discussion?

sal

 

[Danke42]

Well If I ever need to whittle a 1x2 during a fight I will make sure to pick a clip point.

For the time being I'll stick with Micheal Janichs's take on blade shapes.

 

[Planterz]

Wood isn't clothing and flesh. Cardboard might be a better analogue if you're testing slashing power. Or something foam like an old office chair or those archery targets that look like a deer.

Also, look up the long seax.

 

[sgt1372]

I suppose it's all theoretical,with countless "what if's" to consider but, bottom line, if you use as wharncliffe bladed knife like a Yojimbo in SD, it almost certainly will be as effective as any other SD designed knife if used "effectively" w/in the limits of it's design.

What's "effective?" Depends on the knife but generally for a SD knife, it means using it to cut flesh -- face, neck, arms, belly and/or legs -- not bone or thru more clothes than the knife is capable of cutting thru.

In the case of the Yojimbo, with it's 3.1" sharply pointed blade, it would be very effective in cutting flesh and in stabbing, as long as you don't contact bone w/force which could possibly damage the tip of the blade but as a slasher, there's no doubt that the Yojimbo can wreak serious damage to exposed flesh and effective in cutting through light (and even thick) clothing in order to reach the targeted body part.

In the case of the Bastinelli/Marcaida Pika (that I often carry) which only has a 1" claw shaped blade, it would not be at all effective as a stabbing weapon (in which case such use would be "improper" but it is a very effective as a slashing knife across the face, neck, belly and arms/legs (through light fabric). However, it would be pretty ineffective to use to try to cut through something like a heavy winter jacket.

So, you have to adapt the use of the weapon you are using to it's specific design limitations.

 

[maugust09]

I was always under the impression that self defense with a knife was primarily most effective due to training, not necessarily the knife itself. In a skilled hand I doubt the specific knife design would make a ton of different as long as the user was comfortable with it.

As someone NOT trained in self defense with a knife, my knife would be an absolute last resort. I was told you run towards a gun and away from a knife.

If i wanted a good SD knife, i would grab a Spydie civilian since i believe (and please correct me if wrong) those were designed for the SD of untrained users. The curved S blade and serrations means any contact will do serious damage. The fragile tip could break off inside the attacker as well doing even more damage.

 

[lieferung]

This piece might be relevant: https://blog.knife-depot.com/history-of-the-wharncliffe-blade/?amp

It even credits Janisch as the origin of the more recent wharncliffe-for-SD concept, and it appears to be based on cutting tests.

 

[Danke42]

Let's not get all bogged down with tests.

 

[Ironbut]

Michael Janich has a very informative video on why he designed the Yojimbo 2 the way he did & it includes practical cutting/slashing tests using sides of pork. Google it.

 

[DocT]

I’ve seen demos of the cutting power of small wharncliffe blades. They made a believer out of me.

As for wharncliffe designs I love the Ken Onion Leek blade. If it were a hair thicker it would be the best of all things.

 

[sgt1372]

I was always under the impression that self defense with a knife was primarily most effective due to training, not necessarily the knife itself. In a skilled hand I doubt the specific knife design would make a ton of different as long as the user was comfortable with it.

Guess you missed my point entirely. While training in the use of a knife for SD is indeed important, in order to use the knife "effectively", you have know how to best use it within it's specific design limits.

As someone NOT trained in self defense with a knife, my knife would be an absolute last resort.

Generally speaking, a knife is usually (but not always) the weapon of last resort. Depends if you are carrying any other weapons, like a kuboton or tactical pen or even just a plain old pencil or pen. LOL!

I was told you run towards a gun and away from a knife.

Whoever told you this is/was an idiot. Did s/he bother to tell you why and what you need to do if you run TOWARDS the gun?

FWIW, what they told me to do at the Police Academy when confronted w/a person w/a gun situation was to first TAKE COVER! The following actions taken would depend on the situation but NEVER involve running towards the gunman under any circumstances.

If i wanted a good SD knife, i would grab a Spydie civilian since i believe (and please correct me if wrong) those were designed for the SD of untrained users. The curved S blade and serrations means any contact will do serious damage.

The Civilian (or Matriarch) look bad a$$ed but they are not the best SD knives IMO. First, the blades are too long; most SD knives are shorter. Second, while very effective in cutting flesh, knives w/serrated blades are known to hang up and get caught in clothing. Third, the hooked blade shape is only good for slashing; no way to stab w/it which is a serious limitation in a knife fight.

There are a lot of better choices for an SD knife starting w/the Yojimbo.

The fragile tip could break off inside the attacker as well doing even more damage.

No one wants to buy/use any knife for any purpose that will cause it to break.

 

[Planterz]

I’ve seen demos of the cutting power of small wharncliffe blades. They made a believer out of me.

As for wharncliffe designs I love the Ken Onion Leek blade. If it were a hair thicker it would be the best of all things.

The carbon fibre version (and the copper one too, I think) CMP154 blade is flat ground rather than hollow. It's not any thicker at the spine, but it's not as delicate. Still, I'm not sure I'd consider the Leek great for self defense. The handle is a bit small and lacks positive grip contours.

 

[tulsamal]

I believe the design logic of the Civilian and Matriarch was as a “let go of me” knife. Not for some kind of “close with the enemy and kill” type of weapon. That serrated S blade would work great against a hand or forearm, a sideways slash against someone either who won’t let go of you or your weapon. Weapon retention drill.

 

[maugust09]

Guess you missed my point entirely. While training in the use of a knife for SD is indeed important, in order to use the knife "effectively", you have know how to best use it within it's specific design limits.



Generally speaking, a knife is usually (but not always) the weapon of last resort. Depends if you are carrying any other weapons, like a kuboton or tactical pen or even just a plain old pencil or pen. LOL!



Whoever told you this is/was an idiot. Did s/he bother to tell you why and what you need to do if you run TOWARDS the gun?

FWIW, what they told me to do at the Police Academy when confronted w/a person w/a gun situation was to first TAKE COVER! The following actions taken would depend on the situation but NEVER involve running towards the gunman under any circumstances.



The Civilian (or Matriarch) look bad a$$ed but they are not the best SD knives IMO. First, the blades are too long; most SD knives are shorter. Second, while very effective in cutting flesh, knives w/serrated blades are known to hang up and get caught in clothing. Third, the hooked blade shape is only good for slashing; no way to stab w/it which is a serious limitation in a knife fight.

There are a lot of better choices for an SD knife starting w/the Yojimbo.



No one wants to buy/use any knife for any purpose that will cause it to break.

As i said, if the person is comfortable with their knife and trained in using it, it can be an effective weapon. I think we are both agreeing on that point. I would assume someone trained in knife defense will be able to pick up any knife and at least understand how to use it effectively even if not familiar with its capabilities.

As far as running towards a gun and away from a knife, this is meant when someone is somewhat within striking distance. If youre <5 feet away from someone and they pull a gun, cover isnt necessarily possible and running away means you get shot in the back anyways. At least if you lunge theres a chance you catch the other person offgaurd or can push the gun away or something. Pulling the trigger still takes time to react and surprise can be enough to throw off aim. If youre within striking distsnce and someone pulls a knife, even if you lunge towards them you could end up just getting cut even if the assailent is just standing there holding the blade in front of them. That is the logic behind what i said. If im wrong then so be it, as i said i have no formal training. Obviously if someone pulls a gun and cover is possible or im 100 yards away...im certainly not charging him. But if someone pulls a knife, at least if i run he has to catch me to use his weapon.

While the civilian might not be the best SD knife, i believe its design is useful for untrained users. As someone else said, its more of a get off me weapon, drag that across someones arm and theyre going to let go. Even if you cant directly stab someone, if you push that blade directly into someone they are going to feel it. I mean seriously, would you take a civilian right now and demonstrate its inability to stab someone by pushing it into your gut? Probably not bc you know its still going to do some damage.

Im assuming a lot about its design, but if its sole purpose is for untrained SD, having a tip break off in your assailant probably isnt something you care about as much as defending yourself/getting away. I wouldnt buy a civilian to break down boxes...bc there are better knives for that

I believe youre speaking from a somewhat biased point of view as you clearly have training in this world.

 

[maugust09]

Guess you missed my point entirely. While training in the use of a knife for SD is indeed important, in order to use the knife "effectively", you have know how to best use it within it's specific design limits.



Generally speaking, a knife is usually (but not always) the weapon of last resort. Depends if you are carrying any other weapons, like a kuboton or tactical pen or even just a plain old pencil or pen. LOL!



Whoever told you this is/was an idiot. Did s/he bother to tell you why and what you need to do if you run TOWARDS the gun?

FWIW, what they told me to do at the Police Academy when confronted w/a person w/a gun situation was to first TAKE COVER! The following actions taken would depend on the situation but NEVER involve running towards the gunman under any circumstances.



The Civilian (or Matriarch) look bad a$$ed but they are not the best SD knives IMO. First, the blades are too long; most SD knives are shorter. Second, while very effective in cutting flesh, knives w/serrated blades are known to hang up and get caught in clothing. Third, the hooked blade shape is only good for slashing; no way to stab w/it which is a serious limitation in a knife fight.

There are a lot of better choices for an SD knife starting w/the Yojimbo.



No one wants to buy/use any knife for any purpose that will cause it to break.

Also im not disagreeing or trying to say youre wrong on your points. Im only trying to say that in an untrained hand, there really is no "effective" or best knife to use in SD. Trained users have the benefit of being able to identify and utilize the most effective features of a knife. But the same knife for an untrained user simply will not be as effective. Thats why i suggested the civilian as that "oh shit/last resort" weapon for untrained users. Still might be better options out there for sure.

Im on mobile so i did my best to address your points, apologize if i missed something.

 

[Sal Glesser]

Interesting discussion. Just some thoughts to share. Most important is that the knife you use, if you have to use it, is sharp and not used for utility chores or regularly sharpened. Also access, deployment and grip be sound.

In my opinion, the most important part about a knife is that you have it with you when you need it. The most important thing about a knife for self defense is that you don't drop it.

sal

 

[maugust09]

Interesting discussion. Just some thoughts to share. Most important is that the knife you use, if you have to use it, is sharp and not used for utility chores or regularly sharpened. Also access, deployment and grip be sound.

In my opinion, the most important part about a knife is that you have it with you when you need it. The most important thing about a knife for self defense is that you don't drop it.

sal

Its funny you should say always having a knife when needed, ive always found the days i "need" my knife are the days i havent put one in my pocket, usually bc im working around the house and theyre easily accessible. Ill admit over the last few months of quarantine and not leaving the house very often, ive fallen out of the habit of pocketing a knife.

Im fortunate, that in my short 32 years here, ive never needed a weapon for self defense. Anytime trouble has arisen ive always utilized the sharpest tool i own: my mind. This is a track record i hope will remain intact. I prefer using my knives as tools at my pleasure and leisure, not out of the need for violent reactions.

 

[VashHash]

This helps to illustrate something that a wharnecliffe does. It focuses the energy of the cut.

This is not a wharnecliffe blade though. I just feel the concept is similar. The curved section isn't as effective.

I also feel like the tool is far less important than the person behind it. A $5000 gun won't make me a better shot. A "SD" knife won't make me a better defensive fighter. Some people are even dangerous with a pencil.

 

[Ippon98]

I also feel like the tool is far less important than the person behind it. A $5000 gun won't make me a better shot. A "SD" knife won't make me a better defensive fighter. Some people are even dangerous with a pencil.

Agree!
Adding to the discussion: in trained hands one tool could be more effective than another. I think the same is true for an untrained hand. Someone skilled might make better use of a yojimbo2, while the sturdy grip and aggressive curves and serrations of the civilian might be more effective for someone untrained.

Edit for clarity