Copper liner and pins

M

Maus1322

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Mar 24, 2013
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Hey guys i have officially caught the bug and want to ask a question now but dont wanna be a pest. I am planning on making my next knife with copper liners and pins. Is there anything i should know about working with copper before i attempt this feat? I have been reading books and articles for about 8 months now. ( My favorite is the $50.00 Knife shop so far) Any tips or tricks that you all know would be greatly appreciated. See these questions are because i am self teaching and have no experienced knife makers in my area that i know of.

Just a little about myself: I only have a 1x30 HF belt grinder and i have a buffer grinder combo. I do my ht out of a 5 pound can and a small propane torch.(my bushcrafter knife is about the largest i can do) I do ALOT of hand sanding and filing and finally got myself about a 20 year old Craftsman band saw to help with scales. I have yet to make a wood handle but have made all of mine out of micarta and G10. I also use a small HF drill press with some sanding drums.

Thank you for your time and have a great day

Maus
 
OK, some info would be good here - What type of knife and liners are we talking about??? Friction folder liners, handle scale liners on a fixed blade, liner lock folder????
Basic copper info:
Copper is a fantastic heat conductor. It will get HOT fast in sanding and grinding.
*Copper is a gummy metal. It will clog up files and belts, so clean them off regularly. It also tends to "grab" on belts and moving tooling. It drills/mills very gummy, and snags on the drill bit and milling tools.
Copper is a soft metal. It dents, bends, and scratches easily. Pins peen nicely.
Copper will turn bright pinkish gold color when sanding. This will turn darker reddish brown quickly as the air oxidizes it, and deepen more with time. There are ways to speed up the process, and different looks that can be attained, but generally it is best to let the copper patinate on its own.

*Pay special attention to the second comment about copper. NEVER try and hand hold copper pieces being drilled or processed with a machine. It will grab and spin in a flash.It is also a good idea to have some sort of way to hold it when grinding, as it will fly out of your hands easily.
 
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Are you sure you want copper ? A similar color but easier handling and slower oxidizing would be gilding metal , copper with 5 to 10 % zinc. It's what they use for jacketed bullets.
 
I was just thinking of this. I think I like the dull brown look of copper over shiny brass for pins. As long as I don't do heavy battoning on the handle or something stupid like that, it should hold up just fine, right?
 
Well then thanks for the info bladsmth. I will make sure to do that. The knife will be for my fixed blade bushcrafter design I'm working on. Bladsmth do you know if there is any funny chemical reaction between the copper and carbon steel? If not then my liner should look nice. Thanks mete for the information I will look into that as well
 
electrochemically copper on carbon steel should be pretty much the same as brass on carbon steel – not very reactive. but obviously you should try to seal water / moisture out.
 
I use copper sheet for liners and wiring for pins and dont have any issue. Work it slow and short. Dont keep it on the grinder for long. It will also shred and leave slivers, grind then file, then sand. Get it close with the grinder then switch to files, clean the files often. I have a couple with copper liners and they havent had a reaction yet, im sure if they had long exposure to salt water/air it might do something.
 
Keep a few sticks of kids sidewalk chalk on your bench. Run your file over the chalk before filing gummy material like copper. It helps but plan to do a lot of carding if filing copper.
 
Well thanks to all for tips and I greatly appreciate the tips as I hope to one day be as good as some of you. I have just recently started building a 2x72 belt grinder by buying buemont wheels. Like I said thanks again
 
you can buy 1/8" copper nails from the hardware store very cheaply. They make great pins if you snip the heads off. Save the heads for later, when you want to make your own casting materials.

You will want to.

Also, you can get used electrical bus bars cheaply from ebay. Get beryllium copper. It is a little harder and tougher, but looks just the same (at least to me). Use copper in places where it is not bearing much load or shear (pins that don't do anything but hold handle scales, for instance, or a backup pin in combination with epoxy and or acraglass).

You can also use copper to make ferrules and bolsters for your own tools like chisels and scrapers (although it is often easier to just use spent brass from cartridges of whatever caliber is closest to the tool size you are making).

As Stacy said, in peens great. You can cold work/forge it well. Forge until it gets harder, then heat to dull red and quench. This anneals it, and it will be dead soft again. But, it will work harden quickly.

Take advantage of this. Anneal often when making copper or copper alloy things with shapes (I often make brazed-together guards and pommels for Chinese swords out of copper alloys, but not just copper).

Just before you are done, planish the whole thing or peen it all over with a ball-peen. You can leave the textured look or file it off. But, either way, the work hardening will make the copper a great deal more resistant to bending. I am not sure if it makes it more resistant to abrasion. Maybe.

It is a good idea to work harden final pieces, though. Pins sort of get work hardened when peened, although tapping some along the length before you put it in place would help, too. Just don't tap the area of the heads until the thing is seated where you want it to go. It will crack if you work harden it too much.

You can hot forge copper, too. I never do. But, you can.
 
Working it slow is important. If you grind too quickly on a piece that is glued up with epoxy, the copper will heat up enough to break the epoxy bond. Other than that I think copper is beautiful on knives.
 
Kevin and others:
Please, DO NOT USE BERYLLIUM copper or other beryllium alloys in a knife shop.


kevin -the professor said:
you can buy 1/8" copper nails from the hardware store very cheaply. They make great pins if you snip the heads off. Save the heads for later, when you want to make your own casting materials.

You will want to.

Also, you can get used electrical bus bars cheaply from ebay. Get beryllium copper. It is a little harder and tougher, but looks just the same (at least to me). Use copper in places where it is not bearing much load or shear (pins that don't do anything but hold handle scales, for instance, or a backup pin in combination with epoxy and or acraglass).

You can also use copper to make ferrules and bolsters for your own tools like chisels and scrapers (although it is often easier to just use spent brass from cartridges of whatever caliber is closest to the tool size you are making).

As Stacy said, in peens great. You can cold work/forge it well. Forge until it gets harder, then heat to dull red and quench. This anneals it, and it will be dead soft again. But, it will work harden quickly.

Take advantage of this. Anneal often when making copper or copper alloy things with shapes (I often make brazed-together guards and pommels for Chinese swords out of copper alloys, but not just copper).

Just before you are done, planish the whole thing or peen it all over with a ball-peen. You can leave the textured look or file it off. But, either way, the work hardening will make the copper a great deal more resistant to bending. I am not sure if it makes it more resistant to abrasion. Maybe.

It is a good idea to work harden final pieces, though. Pins sort of get work hardened when peened, although tapping some along the length before you put it in place would help, too. Just don't tap the area of the heads until the thing is seated where you want it to go. It will crack if you work harden it too much.

You can hot forge copper, too. I never do. But, you can.
Click to expand...
 
BERYLLIUM is bad mojo, especially if you grind it. Very dangerous material. Very toxic. We no longer accept jobs at our shop if they call for beryllium, we would rather not expose our workers to it.
 
tho far from an expert... copper is my favorite material for fixed blade components... made a smaller blade for an uncle of mine years ago.... desert ironwood scales, 1/16 th liners.. copper guard.... and acorn style nuts.... have to find a picture to post. I personnally like the look of copper better than other more common materials... it works very easy... cleans up fast.... tho it will age.. you can clearcoat it to help slow down the aging process if you so desire... I use a wax to prevent clogging on my belts.... the particular brand we get at work (eabrication shop) is cuteze? made by american grease stick.... works good on aluminum also.... flap disc and belts dont clog and loadup. good luck.
 
OT a bit....
How would one determine, at the junk yard, the difference between beryllium copper and the stuff that won't kill you(as fast)?

Thanks,

-Peter
 
I couldn't amswer that one... working in a fab shop I get good prices on most materials I use... so I buy it all...
 
P. McKinley said:
OT a bit....
How would one determine, at the junk yard, the difference between beryllium copper and the stuff that won't kill you(as fast)?

Thanks,

-Peter
Click to expand...
Beryllium copper is a more gold color. It mills terribly and is both sticky and hard at the same time. HSS works well, carbide bits will chip and break.
Here is a pic of a BeCu slug I did for a flashlight drop-in. You can clearly see the difference in color. And yes, beryllium in dust form being inhaled is bad... just wear proper PPE. In larger swarf and such and just handling it there is no issue. I use it a fair bit and I'm still here... lol. Oh, and patina color is a darker bronzish color...
(I'm drilling a center hole here, hence why a drill bit and not an end mill. And this is my cheapo rotary solution for a 4th axis here at the home shop on the mini-mill. I'll post up my sub $70 setup in a thread if anyone is interested...)
b635ac6f88cbcc47c1112b300c696399.jpg


There is also aluminum bronze which is copper with aluminum instead of beryllium. It also is stronger and has a more gold color. But no nasty dust particles to kill you...

-Eric
 
Peter, the sheet I gave you (if you have any left) is roofing copper, almost pure copper. If nothing else, remember the redder the better. :-)
 
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