Council Tool- carbon content of all axes revealed

R

Ripshin Lumberjack

Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
120
Hi everyone

Today Council Tool replied to a e-mail from me on carbon content of their axes. WOW! All of their axes are made from 1060 carbon steel made here in the USA,
with only two exceptions. The 2 1/4 boys axe and the pulaski axe are made of 1080 carbon steel. The reply also informed me that these steels perform in a very similar way to the boron based steels from Council's Swedish competitors.

WOW! My family has used Council Tool axes for over 100 years. The more I learn about Council Tool, I know that they make great, superior products that competes with and surpasses their competition.

I own 7 Council Tool axes.

ripshin lumberjack
 
I've bought a couple new from them just to help support the cause. I'd hate to see them go.
 
I'm still skeptical. Why don't they advertise this? 1060 is arguably better than the C50 used in GFB and even if not has more glamorous carbon! 1080 is almost ideal for axes properly treated*.

The only steels/alloys they have ever specified are 5160 for velvicut and new line, and 4140 for the FSS boys axe.

Also, at 48-54 Rc, 5160 and 1080 are wasted, even 1060 could be a little harder, whereas that is about what I'd expect with 4140.

Maybe they change steels according to market?

*According to conventional wisdom...
 
I've always been curious about boron steels .Only a very small amount of Boron , .003-.005 % Boron is used to grealtly raise hardenability . In the past I only knew one company that used it regularly - Caterpillar !
Once in a while I see a product that uses it .
The '80' in 1080 means .80 Carbon in case you haven't figured out !
 
BG_Farmer said:
I'm still skeptical. Why don't they advertise this? 1060 is arguably better than the C50 used in GFB and even if not has more glamorous carbon! 1080 is almost ideal for axes properly treated*.

The only steels/alloys they have ever specified are 5160 for velvicut and new line, and 4140 for the FSS boys axe.

Also, at 48-54 Rc, 5160 and 1080 are wasted, even 1060 could be a little harder, whereas that is about what I'd expect with 4140.

Maybe they change steels according to market?
Click to expand...

I wonder about this as well. Might be old data from when they used to make a FSS spec boys axe. The only thing claiming FSS spec now is a pulaski.
 
Like any sharp edge the hardness is only a part of formula that makes an amazing cutting edge. Edge geometry has more impact on the blades performance and durability. By far more than hardness. Im sure someone with metalurgical background could chime in. I personally thought the harder the blade the better it will perform. How surprised I was when some of the blades I made with 1084 and tempered back to a measured 60-61 HCR offered no performance gain for the edge geometry I used (in my case acute edge geometry). The only result was an edge that chipped easy in hardwood.

The combination of edge geometry and temper in the Woodcraft axe is ideal as far as I can tell. I do not own any GB axes but I can say with confidence that there is no way it could offer any performace gains over Woodcraft axe. If it did by some chance I would be surprised.

It would be nice to hear someones input on how does the edge holding compare in Woodcraft and GB axe side by side.
 
BG_Farmer said:
I'm still skeptical. Why don't they advertise this? 1060 is arguably better than the C50 used in GFB and even if not has more glamorous carbon! 1080 is almost ideal for axes properly treated*.

The only steels/alloys they have ever specified are 5160 for velvicut and new line, and 4140 for the FSS boys axe.

Also, at 48-54 Rc, 5160 and 1080 are wasted, even 1060 could be a little harder, whereas that is about what I'd expect with 4140.

Maybe they change steels according to market?

*According to conventional wisdom...
Click to expand...

From what I can tell in conversations with Council Tool is that the reason they advertise the 5160 is that it is used in the high-end or premium axe lines where customers will want to know about the higher quality steel.... they probably think that since the stock axes and the FSS are basically what they sell to hardware stores, most of those customers are not as knowledgeable on the different types of carbon steel.... I do believe you might see a change in the marketing within their new website where the grades of steel in the stock axes might get listed...

Peace, Rooster
 
Utican, in some parts of NYS we spell it Metallurgical ! 60-61 is more than necessary for an axe . 58-59 with 5160 and a proper convex edge should be a good choice.
 
Never the less the Forest Service set .72% as the minimum carbon content for axes supplied to them.

"3.2.1.1 Steel composition. The tool head of each type of ax shall be forged from fully killed plain carbon AISI/
SAE steel containing 0.72 to 0.93 percent carbon, 0.30 to 0.90 percent manganese, not more than 0.040
percent phosphorus, and not more than 0.050 percent sulfur. Steel composition of the head shall be deter-
mined as specified in 4.5.1.1."
 
mete said:
Utican, in some parts of NYS we spell it Metallurgical ! 60-61 is more than necessary for an axe . 58-59 with 5160 and a proper convex edge should be a good choice.
Click to expand...

Hehe you got me, im a terrible speller.
 
I would like to see an improvement of the heat treat from Council on some axes 48-54 RC is a huge range and far from ideal except in a mass production, lowest common denominator (slamming the axe into dirt) scenario.
 
mete said:
I've always been curious about boron steels .Only a very small amount of Boron , .003-.005 % Boron is used to grealtly raise hardenability . In the past I only knew one company that used it regularly - Caterpillar !
Once in a while I see a product that uses it .
The '80' in 1080 means .80 Carbon in case you haven't figured out !
Click to expand...

Cyclone make their shovels out of Bluescope XK15B28 XLERCOIL boron titanium steel :O - yes, which was indeed made for wear parts on machinery: http://www.bluescopesteel.com.au/go/news/cyclone-digs-deep-with-xlercoil

That's one hard shovel. Also, those're actually made in Australia, which is cool.
 
To meet Forest Service specs the axe must be made with steel that contains at least 72 points of carbon, i.e. .72 carbon content. The most commonly used steel that meets this spec is 1080, an excellent axe steel. I'd bet it's 1080 but I don't have any evidence that this particular axe uses this steel.

When Whiskey River was marketing Council's re-issued FSS boys axe they specifically stated that it was 1080 steel.

And BTW, thanks for the heads up that Council has issued a full size axe that meets FSS specs. I'll be contacting 42Blades about ordering one.
Council%201080%20FSS%20steel.jpg
 
Square_peg said:
To meet Forest Service specs the axe must be made with steel that contains at least 72 points of carbon, i.e. .72 carbon content. The most commonly used steel that meets this spec is 1080, an excellent axe steel. I'd bet it's 1080 but I don't have any evidence that this particular axe uses this steel.

When Whiskey River was marketing Council's re-issued FSS boys axe they specifically stated that it was 1080 steel.

And BTW, thanks for the heads up that Council has issued a full size axe that meets FSS specs. I'll be contacting 42Blades about ordering one.
Council%201080%20FSS%20steel.jpg
Click to expand...
I asked Council Tool about this via instagram and they said it was 1060 and was made to the military specification. Would be nice if it was 1080
 
Interesting. 1060 doesn't meet the Federal Supply Schedule specifications. It's not unheard of for someone at Council not to have accurate details about one of their products.
 
Square_peg said:
Interesting. 1060 doesn't meet the Federal Supply Schedule specifications. It's not unheard of for someone at Council not to have accurate details about one of their products.
Click to expand...
That is true. It would be good to get it cleared up. The SKU does include FSS on Council’s site.
 
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