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CPM-Cruwear vs Cruwear? Any difference?

Joined
Nov 1, 2011
Messages
558
Initially I though there was a difference but I can't seem to find anything on crucible's site abouthe CPM-Cruwear. According to them Cruwear is almost as tough as CPM-M4 but many on forums say it's above M4 and below 3V. Spyderco has them as different steels.There are quite a few comparison graphs with Cruwear in them but no CPM version. Anyone know the scoop on the cpm version. I just know how much of a difference the cpm process can affect the steels capabilities like 154cm vs cpm-154
 
As far as I know, Cruwear is Crucible's particle metal version of Vascoware. In other words, all Cruwear is CPM.
 
Wasn't the mule cruwear and the manix 2 or military sprint CPM-Cruwear. I remember someone saying the military was the first cpm cruwear on a knife.
 
The mule was ingot Cruwear and the CPM Cruwear is indeed powder steel. I don't think it's going to be easy to find any real hard data on the comparison of the two steels performance. Perhaps the company that manufacturers it but I haven't seen anything else. My personal experience? I can't really tell any difference . If I was grinding it at the factory maybe, or not. Probably more of a difference between two knives using high / low austinizing and tempering temps than between the two steels themselves in a final product similarly heat treated.

My first impressions of Cruwear ( Vascowear actually) came during the early 80's on another persons Gerber "V" steel Sportsman 2. It remained a legend in my mind until I finally bought one decades later. I found out some of my initial impression of toughness was from the edge being about 55 degrees inclusive from the factory and fairly thick compared to my current carries. Believe it or not it would still easily dry shave at that. :)

It remains one of my favorite cutlery steels as done by Spyderco due to it's balance of attributes falling in the area I prefer for most uses on non specialized stuff. I still like and carry other steel/knife combos though.
 
IMG_0044_zpspjfcdn9h.jpg


I got this off an app I have on my phone, it's got data on just about every steel known to man.
 
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Like The Mastiff said, if a steel is marked CPM it means it has gone through the Crucible Powdermetallurgy process instead of traditional ingot processes


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So there is a slight difference according to Spyderco's site CPM verson gains .05 in carbon in exchange for .05 of tungsten. Thats the only difference I see on the site along with it being a CPM steel rather than an ingot steel. It seems like all the charts and data on this steel are in its ingot verson. I can't seem to find any performance data for CPM.
 
Please understand my comments here are my understanding related to the differences between conventional and CPM process. I look forward to others corrections, updates, additions to my comments here. I believe ..., all my comments here would apply to all CPM produced steels, not just CPM Cruwear as asked by the OP.

CPM process produces a superior end result (compared to conventional steel making) by reducing/eliminating alloy segregation (clumping of alloys) during the process of solidification (turning to solid during cooling). Both are/can-be processed into ingots during manufacture. This is beneficial throughout the process of manufacture (a better steel means better grinding, better heat treatment results, better finishing, better end user performance and future sharpening because the steel is more consistent throughout. Additionally, end results will be more easily repeatable making for better consistency throughout manufacture process to end result. . More on better sharpening examples below.

With convention process the molten mix (base metal and all added alloys) are poured into an ingot mold and cooled. During the cooling process various alloys segregate, to some degree, into micro clusters of like alloys (pockets of alloys in the base metal). The poured/cooled ingots are later forged (or hot rolled) into sheet steel for stock removal process or directly into finished product.

With CPM process the molten mix (base metal and all added alloys) is processed through a small nozzle with high pressure into a spray of tiny droplets that are rapidly cooled forming what might be considered mini ingots (tiny round solids of the alloyed steel) with much more even distribution of alloys (kinda like mini BB’s of alloyed steel in powder form). I have used Dippin’ Dots vs. traditional ice-cream analogy for illustrative purposes for others in the past (little pellets of goodness). This powdered alloyed steel can then be stored in bins for later use, including loading into forms that are then hot pressed (forged, but I believe at lower temperature than typical forging) into ingots. These resultant ingots can then be hot rolled into sheet steel for stock removal process. The grain structure of the CPM steel is much more even, producing a superior product.

When looking at cross section comparisons under a microscope it is easy to see the more even distribution of carbides in CPM steel. I will choose one alloy for an example Vanadium to hopefully illustrate how CPM is better to an end user (same would apply to any alloy in steel composition). With conventional process, the Vanadium carbides will be more segregated (clumped together) after cooling. These larger clumps can more easily fracture out larger matrix formations in grinding, sharpening and in-use reducing the longevity of cutting performance. By contrast, more evenly distributed smaller Vanadium carbides will not fracture out as easily increasing overall performance (the smaller carbides provide greater adhesion, and during grinding and sharpening will produce superior results. I will try to explain why this is using concrete as an analogy.

CPM%20v%20Conventional%20Steel.jpg


Let’s use concrete as an example (composed of cement and aggregate aka rocks). If I make a cubic yard (3’ x 3’ x 3’) of concrete and use one rock (say 1-foot round of single-solid aggregate vs that same rock broken into small gravel), the single rock surface are in contact with the cement will be significantly less. The higher/greater surface area of the gravel will produce a number of significant benefits in making the concrete better/stronger. The concrete produced with the gravel; there will be overall greater adhesion between the two because the surface area of adhesion is greater, it will be able to be poured & formed into much smaller areas, etc., etc. This would be analogic to what we do when we grind the cutting edge on a knife. Smaller more evenly distributed alloys/carbides will result in finer, longer lasting edges, and would also produce finer polishing for those who like polished edges.

I have read through a number of threads on various forums where folks ask about using CPM-3v to forge a tomahawk into a super-steel-hawk. IMHO these are the reasons CPM steel should not be put through traditional forging process where the steel is brought back to temperature where the alloys can redistribute themselves and create alloy segregation (why start a project with CPM steel, then undo what you paid for …?).

I have seen some really great microscopic images that have shown on some knives (non CPM) where the carbides are clustered back from the cutting edge, meaning their location effectively renders them useless from a cutting performance standard. A second knife, produced with the same batch of steel, may have carbides distributed all the way the cutting edge, meaning their location will enhance the cutting performance (the whole reason the alloys would have been specified in the first place). Other images I have seen show large matrix formations of carbides near the edge. These pockets of carbides can break off resulting large chips in the cutting edge.

Less chip-out in finer edges, stronger overall product, etc., better in every way in my mind. How much better …, subjective similar to one steel over another (everyone mileage will vary based on personal usage).
 
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What if a steel is not marked "CPM" ?

It could still be Powder Metallurgy process manufactured (PM) ... Typically however, I would think a manufacturer (knife mfr not steel mfr) would choose to label the end result with the higher grading if indeed it is higher. Example: 154CM (154 by Crucible Metal), CPM154 (154 by Crucible Metals produced used PM process), just 154 (I would think this would be an unmarked CM154 steel like the question you asked - unmarked). In this example, I would assume a knife maker used 154CM and choose not to pay homage to Crucible (could also be CPM154 ...). I have seen a number of knives simply marked 154 (becomes a mistry steel as the knife changes hands into the future). I think only Crucible make/makes 154 (Japanese version of ATS-34 by Hitachi).

In general, I would assume if it is not designated PM it is assumed to be conventional/traditional process manufacture (Not PM process).

Crucible is not the only company producing PM (Powder Metallurgy). CPM is I assume their Trademark version of PM steel.


EDIT:
Spray-Formed Steel is another alternate process (alternate from PM process) that can achieve similar positive results to PM (Power Metallurgy) process with less steps involved potentially reducing production costs. It is my understanding that spray-formed steel means the molten steel was sprayed into ingot or billet form effectively bypassing the powder process pf PM. Not necessarily that one is any "better" than another, just a different process of producing the ingots/billets. Spyderco has spray-formed production model knives (PSF27 Spray-Formed version of D2) like the Mule Team-19. In typically knife buildingI believe the ingots/billets would still be roll formed into sheets then further processed towards ends product. In other industries I believe they can spray-form onto or into pre-formed cavities and surfaces for varying applications.
Pretty cool all the options :-)
 
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IMG_0044_zpspjfcdn9h.jpg


I got this off an app I have on my phone, it's got data on just about every steel known to man.

I understand the "app" image states " ... in the past Cruwear was made as an ingot steel ...", and that in many places ingot is used to describe conventional steel casting; but I believe there is a misinterpretation here that ingot steel means by default conventional (non-PM process). PM steel (Powder Metallurgy process) can include being made into ingots and late hot or cold rolled into sheet stock.

I thing conventional vs PM process is a more specific way of differentiation between the two.
 
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It could still be Powder Metallurgy process manufactured (PM) ... Typically however, I would think a manufacturer (knife mfr not steel mfr) would choose to label the end result with the higher grading if indeed it is higher. Example: 154CM (154 by Crucible Metal), CPM154 (154 by Crucible Metals produced used PM process), just 154 (I would think this would be an unmarked CM154 steel like the question you asked - unmarked). In this example, I would assume a knife maker used 154CM and choose not to pay homage to Crucible (could also be CPM154 ...). I have seen a number of knives simply marked 154 (becomes a mistry steel as the knife changes hands into the future). I think only Crucible make/makes 154 (Japanese version of ATS-34 by Hitachi).

In general, I would assume if it is not designated PM it is assumed to be conventional/traditional process manufacture (Not PM process).

Crucible is not the only company producing PM (Powder Metallurgy). CPM is I assume their Trademark version of PM steel.


EDIT:
Spray-Formed Steel is another alternate process (alternate from PM process) that can achieve similar positive results to PM (Power Metallurgy) process with less steps involved potentially reducing production costs. It is my understanding that spray-formed steel means the molten steel was sprayed into ingot or billet form effectively bypassing the powder process pf PM. Not necessarily that one is any "better" than another, just a different process of producing the ingots/billets. Spyderco has spray-formed production model knives (PSF27 Spray-Formed version of D2) like the Mule Team-19. In typically knife buildingI believe the ingots/billets would still be roll formed into sheets then further processed towards ends product. In other industries I believe they can spray-form onto or into pre-formed cavities and surfaces for varying applications.
Pretty cool all the options :-)

Thanks. Is it correct to assume all s30v is cpm?. Spyderco labels their blades as such, Benchmade doesn't.
 
Thanks. Is it correct to assume all s30v is cpm?. Spyderco labels their blades as such, Benchmade doesn't.

jpm2,

In my mind it's not safe to assume any thing ;-)

I believe S30V is a Crucible only steel that was originally designed for the knife/cutlery industry as a collaboration project of a number of knife makers directly with Crucible. I think all S30V manufactured by Crucible done using a PM process as part of the original design. I see no reason it could not be mfrd using other processes though.

I also believe Benchmade generally runs their S30V a little lower on the RC scale (softer compared to say Spyderco). For some users may be of positive bennifit. This may or may not be true across all of their ( B.M.) line (similar to how other manufactures and makers may vary the RC hardness of knives of same steel composition to taylor them to specific end use specifications. I think CRK (Chris Reeves Knives) also runs their S30V a little softer (easier to resharpen than to correct chips etc.).

The specific composition of the steel is but one factor of many related to how a steel will perform.

Geometry in my mind a MUCH more significant factor, potentially the most significant.



Regards,
 
CPM (Crucible Particle Metallurgy) is I believe a proprietary acronym for their process of the manufacture of PM (Powder Metallurgy) steel. I very commonly confuse/forget the "P" in CPM is part of a proprietary designation.

Please forgive me, if any of my earlier posts may have used Particle vs Powder in my comments.
 
I understand the "app" image states " ... in the past Cruwear was made as an ingot steel ...", and that in many places ingot is used to describe conventional steel casting; but I believe there is a misinterpretation here that ingot steel means by default conventional (non-PM process). PM steel (Powder Metallurgy process) can include being made into ingots and late hot or cold rolled into sheet stock.

I thing conventional vs PM process is a more specific way of differentiation between the two.

I think the distinction they're making is that they can take the same proprietary molten metal and pour it into a form and the result is an ingot. As opposed to forcing that same molten metal through a ceramic nozzle, allowing the droplets to accumulate, etc etc etc and spray-forming a billet. Even though it's the same blend of alloy components, the end results are not the same.

I'm way off in the weeds here, but who thought of the idea of spray-forming steel?
 
The "clumping" Spey refers to above, in a carbon steel like cruwear is a mineral called Martensite, it is a brittle crystalline structure formed out of Carbon during heat treatments and forging. A short bad heat treat on CPM steels can still create Martensite but the CPM tech more evenly distributes the Carbon throughout the metal so Martensite formation is less likely. I like the dippin dots reference, all except that in the case of CPM, every dot would be a perfectly mixed combination of all elements included in that steel.


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The "clumping" Spey refers to above, in a carbon steel like cruwear is a mineral called Martensite, it is a brittle crystalline structure formed out of Carbon during heat treatments and forging. A short bad heat treat on CPM steels can still create Martensite but the CPM tech more evenly distributes the Carbon throughout the metal so Martensite formation is less likely. I like the dippin dots reference, all except that in the case of CPM, every dot would be a perfectly mixed combination of all elements included in that steel.


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RE: "The "clumping" Spey refers to above, in a carbon steel like cruwear is a mineral called Martensite, it is a brittle crystalline structure formed out of Carbon during heat treatments and forging."

Hmmm ..., with regard to my use of the term "clumping" I thought I was talking about the distribution of carbides as referenced in my text and attached image. Those carbides in excess to what are consumed into the base matrix of the steel (I think the term diffusion - dissolved carbides into the steel matrix during austenitizing phase); the one's that give an edge that bite of sharpness and provide additional wear/abrasion resistance. Perhaps these might be referred to as secondary carbides, as opposed to the carbides that are consumed for properties like hardness enhancing (primary carbides). These carbides all being part of the "alloying elements" added to the iron to form the steel.

Photo attached again below for reference as to my comments here.
RE: My original comments (post# 11) "When looking at cross section comparisons under a microscope it is easy to see the more even distribution of carbides in CPM steel."

Expanded capture of previous image to illustrate, note blue underline (that was not part of the previous image, but included here in a screen capture of where I got the earlier photo).


Image above: CPM (Crucible Particle Metallurgy) or PM (Power Metallurgy non-proprietary version of CPM) or SPF (Spray Form) carbide distribution is much less segregated (less "clumping" aka more evenly distributed, more surface area = stronger overall, providing greater edge stability).

In general when I hear "martensite" I typically think of it as a crystalline transformation process (austinite physical state transformation to martensite physical state - process that happens during tempering cool-down to reduce the brittleness of the steel after the heat hardening process), but probably better for me to think of as a physical state (specifically a crystalline physical state related to the specifics of the process ...?).

RE: "... a mineral called Martensite, it is a brittle crystalline structure formed out of Carbon during heat treatments and forging."
I've never hear of "a mineral called Martensite". Perhaps a gross lapse of primary knowledge on my part, as I am not formally educated on this subject and have only learned what I have searched out related to needs at any given time (potentially the most dangerous type of learning, LOL ... ;-). Maybe you could give me a little more to understand (maybe links, or however you think would be better to follow your reference meanings.)?

The more I learn, the less I know (this I have learned).

PS:
I am pleased to read you appreciated my Dippin' Dots reference. BTW, as I remember Dippin' Dots, each dot was one flavor only. So, every strawberry-cheesecake flavored Dot was a semi-perfect Dot of "goodness" of one fully blended ice-cream flavor (strawberry-cheesecake ice-cream). The blend was made (like when iron is blended with various alloying elements at critical temperature for through mix) and then rapidly cooled or flash frozen with liquid nitrogen into the individual Dots. Later, during the serve, those individual-flavor-Dot's could then be blended kinda like how I imagine PM steel pellets could be later blended to create a composite of two or more PM steels to create a composite billet or steel form. In this way is how I see a parallel analogy, and it seems to help describe the process of CPM and/or PM to those with very little knowledge on the subject. Well at least it worked back when Dippin' Dots were available (miss them to this day, probably been at least 8-10 years since I've seen them).

Found a cool video of the process (to me VERY similar to CPM/PM process of making steel).
At least similar from a layman's explanation and use as in an analogy example, as I referenced.
Watch specifically starting at 1:15 into the video & ending at 2:00 for CPM/PM comparison.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqfJzg17wa8
 
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