Creating a dugout canoe. Lots of nice tools and skill here.

That was some beautiful craftmanship on that canoe, but a 700$ axe ?
There's no way they're better than an axe that costed as much as 10$ in the 1920's ( not sure if there were even any for that much back then )
 
thought it said guild of independant craftsman.cost of living higher?maybe that is why they value their labor more,700 is crazy for an axe
 
Aside from the principles of supply and demand, I guess the value of something is what people are willing to pay. I thought $185 for a GB Small Forest was a lot, but I'm glad to have it. My buddy is big into fly fishing and "good" rods go easily for $700+. The Canadian Tire store down the road has a nice over and under 12 gauge on sale for $28000. A good acoustic guitar is easily in the $1500-$2000 range. Quality costs, and things wouldn't cost what they do unless folks were willing to pay.
 
I'm not sure what they are asking for them has any effect on appreciating what they are and the quality of craftsmanship. It shouldn't detract from our conversation on them here at least.

"Price" and "Cost" can be looked at differently.

"Price" is a fixed number that one pays. Price is set by the person in possession of something that another must pay to take possession of said item. New tires, a washer/dryer, a toothbrush, an old axe at a garage sale, etc.

"Cost" might be seen as the effect it has on the person who pays the "Price" - or in other words, the financial toll it takes on the purchaser. $700 will "cost" some people a lot more than others.

I sometimes think of the hordes of junk I have and can't get my head around how much over the years it "cost" me. Wasn't all at once but for the guys with hordes of tools in boxes, on shelves, in bins, hanging up, leaning, stacked, racked, and stowed - you could turn some of that into something else. You have already absorbed the "cost" of it. Some of it is the thrill of the find, some of it joy of use, some of it heritage, some it is oneupmanship, some of it is something fun to do, some of it is enthnographic interest, some of it is an "Axe Boner" - I don't like that last term but it fits sometimes.

I know several people on these forums and in real life that could simply sell a bucket of tools they don't use to easily purchase one of those if they so chose. Cliche for sure but we might say that "Cost" is relative.

This irritates me to say this but I don't have a flat $700 to throw at something like that. It doesn't irritate me because I don't have the funds to outright purchase one, it bothers me that I have to make that very clear to ward off any weird attitudes or comments here - each one of you know exactly what I am getting at.

So the next time you or someone else talks about the price of something like, say fine handmade Forged tools ask yourself if that "price" is too high or the "cost" to you is greater than than you can handle.

If we are going to discount these tools based their prices then I have to say that a $400-800.00, worn past its prime double bit with a crow stamped in it needs to get the same thing applied. Because that is exactly the same thing.

Here is an example: our last forums allowed outside emails as a contact method. I had two people (not regular members here) email me wanting to buy a Finnish axe from me. I was willing to part with one but when I told them the price, which was the actual price of the head to me plus $20 for the handle I spent a great deal of time carving. I got this response: he offered half of the price then was rude when I said that I am not a business and that really was what it "cost" me. I even offered to look online for him and help him pick a decent one for himself. What I got was being called a "Rip off Artist". The other guy asked to buy just the head for like $10 more than the shipping alone cost for me to even get it here. He also balked when I said that is how much they actually "cost" to get here. Who's right and who's wrong?

There are here, on Blade Forums, guys that collect "Sebenzas", one off works, war relics, etc and they don't seem to have a problem with the "cost" or "price" or factor that into their appreciation or discussions of them.

So, here's a hypothetical scenario - What if I take to selling some of the nicer things I've found to recapture my "cost" to pay their "price" for a Neeman axe - what do you think would happen here if I shared that? Think just for a minute because I have and I think I have a fairly good idea.

I think one outcome would bring out the bad in some people. Then you would have to ask, is it the "price" I paid that angers them or the "cost" to them is beyond their means?

Personally I would enjoy the opportunity to own and use one but the "cost" to me right now is greater than my means.

If anyone on Blade Forums (and Blade Forums is a LOT bigger that our little corner) has a Neeman axe, please share it with us here.

Edit-*i just saw Curt Hal posted similarly while I was typing.
 
Agent_H said:
I'm not sure what they are asking for them has any effect on appreciating what they are and the quality of craftsmanship. It shouldn't detract from our conversation on them here at least.

"Price" and "Cost" can be looked at differently.

"Price" is a fixed number that one pays. Price is set by the person in possession of something that another must pay to take possession of said item. New tires, a washer/dryer, a toothbrush, an old axe at a garage sale, etc.

"Cost" might be seen as the effect it has on the person who pays the "Price" - or in other words, the financial toll it takes on the purchaser. $700 will "cost" some people a lot more than others.

I sometimes think of the hordes of junk I have and can't get my head around how much over the years it "cost" me. Wasn't all at once but for the guys with hordes of tools in boxes, on shelves, in bins, hanging up, leaning, stacked, racked, and stowed - you could turn some of that into something else. You have already absorbed the "cost" of it. Some of it is the thrill of the find, some of it joy of use, some of it heritage, some it is oneupmanship, some of it is something fun to do, some of it is enthnographic interest, some of it is an "Axe Boner" - I don't like that last term but it fits sometimes.

I know several people on these forums and in real life that could simply sell a bucket of tools they don't use to easily purchase one of those if they so chose. Cliche for sure but we might say that "Cost" is relative.

This irritates me to say this but I don't have a flat $700 to throw at something like that. It doesn't irritate me because I don't have the funds to outright purchase one, it bothers me that I have to make that very clear to ward off any weird attitudes or comments here - each one of you know exactly what I am getting at.

So the next time you or someone else talks about the price of something like, say fine handmade Forged tools ask yourself if that "price" is too high or the "cost" to you is greater than than you can handle.

If we are going to discount these tools based their prices then I have to say that a $400-800.00, worn past its prime double bit with a crow stamped in it needs to get the same thing applied. Because that is exactly the same thing.

Here is an example: our last forums allowed outside emails as a contact method. I had two people (not regular members here) email me wanting to buy a Finnish axe from me. I was willing to part with one but when I told them the price, which was the actual price of the head to me plus $20 for the handle I spent a great deal of time carving. I got this response: he offered half of the price then was rude when I said that I am not a business and that really was what it "cost" me. I even offered to look online for him and help him pick a decent one for himself. What I got was being called a "Rip off Artist". The other guy asked to buy just the head for like $10 more than the shipping alone cost for me to even get it here. He also balked when I said that is how much they actually "cost" to get here. Who's right and who's wrong?

There are here, on Blade Forums, guys that collect "Sebenzas", one off works, war relics, etc and they don't seem to have a problem with the "cost" or "price" or factor that into their appreciation or discussions of them.

So, here's a hypothetical scenario - What if I take to selling some of the nicer things I've found to recapture my "cost" to pay their "price" for a Neeman axe - what do you think would happen here if I shared that? Think just for a minute because I have and I think I have a fairly good idea.

I think one outcome would bring out the bad in some people. Then you would have to ask, is it the "price" I paid that angers them or the "cost" to them is beyond their means?

Personally I would enjoy the opportunity to own and use one but the "cost" to me right now is greater than my means.

If anyone on Blade Forums (and Blade Forums is a LOT bigger that our little corner) has a Neeman axe, please share it with us here.

Edit-*i just saw Curt Hal posted similarly while I was typing.
Click to expand...
Has it crossed your mind that not everyone keeps up with these kind of axes and I was just expressing sticker shock?
 
Of course it did Garry. :(

There has probably been too much "Agent_H" on here lately.

Seriously though that was me thinking aloud, connecting to an actual experience.

My humble apologies. Not meant at anyone. Honestly? I probably should keep it to myself. Especially if my rambling is bugging some of the guys I respect the most.
 
Great video and thanks for sharing, watched the whole thing.

Excellent posts by Agent_H and Kevin Houtzager. I don't think that people understand that without high prices, these products wouldn't even be available. Maybe they're marketing geniuses that are sitting back and watching the dollars roll in, but what I see are some skilled and driven individuals who have the cajones to learn dying crafts and try to scrape a living out of them. Personally my main gig is as a woodworker, and though I use power tools, everything is done by hand, by me. People don't realize the cost of running a business, and don't realize that my prices keep me near the poverty line. The only way for me to make more money on the same products would be to massively scale up, i.e. underpaying for labor or making everything with CNC.
 
Seriously, none of that is to say that sticker shock isn't natural. I've watched his/their stuff for a while and I too had that reaction at first. The majority of threads (I've read) on other sites all lead to questions of the handle wood choice - grain or material. My first impression is that their stuff was presented and had a similar reaction as to here maybe.

The other threads (all around the same time/year) in bushcraft, axe, and tool sites where they presented them - the Finnish Splitting Axe stands out in my mind, comments went after the grain on the handles. I'll see if I can't find them when I get a chance. What I remember is that the response from "them" was actually cordial and seemed disappointed by the reaction but very willing to listen to input to get the wood portion right.

Might even start you driving a steel wedge in there. ;)

The handle is one of the most/very important/personal part of a tool but that really is interpreted by the user.

Steel doesn't get "re-steeled" in the sense that an axe gets "re-handled".

It's steel that is the soul of an axe.

*Edit - Regardless of the brand name they have operated under, the same models have been available, their prices have remained fairly steady at least the last 2 years.
 
Kevin Houtzager said:
Cost of living: No not so much, Probably a bit less in Estonia compared to here, and the same as in the US for the most part.





Thats exactly the kind of message I wanted to get across. I'm sure that if anybody could afford one they where willing to buy one.

As for the haggling: They wouldn't happen to be Dutch would they? I'm used to it living here, but there is a reason they call Dutch "cheap" abroad. The real dutch oven isn't a pot like oven, but letting a fart rip under the blankets to keep you warm in stead of turning on the heat. :D :poop: wanting to pay less then something has cost that person is just wrong in my opinion. And its actually the same to buy something so cheap without actually being honest about what its worth.

When I buy my axes or any other thing for that matter I always take into account what an axe in that condition is really worth. If someone wants a fiver but is worth a tenner I usually pay a tenner. That happens to me a lot these days, since all kinds of vintage tools tend to pup up in a church run second hand store a walking distance nearby. I'm not a religious man by any means, but I still know the right thing to do. Am I rich? Not by a long shot. But at least I can say I'm honest.

That's actually how the deal between me and Agent_H Agent_H came about. Finding something the other person wants and trading that. His item is as rare here as my item is there. And thats what it's all about: Appreciating tools. If that tool happens to be €1000,--? Great! If it happens t be €1,--? Great! Because I wanted it. I have 2 axes that are appraised 10 times higher then the Neeman axes (which I still use), but if they where appraised for €1,-- I would still have them and cherrish them. I'm just happy to have found them (an knowledgable where to look), otherwise I could not afford them if I saw them for sale. But knowing what they're worth I still wouldn't sell them, unless I absolutely have to. I appreciate them way to much in every aspect. Would that be the case with a Neeman Tool? Most likely, even though I'm into historical axes.

The one thing that Neeman, Gransfors and to a little lesser degree Hoffman Blacksmithing have in common: You are not just buying an axe, but you're buying a story, a history, something to enjoy and appreciate, or even an identity really.

It's the same as with older axes, just new: The days of old tools are gone: They don't make them like they used to for the most part. But the above mentioned ones are just some of the examples of tools that represent the quality tools of today, which our grandchildren will collect some day.
Click to expand...

I can't be sure but after this I'm convinced they were Dutch!

Hey, also I'm very much laughing right now if that helps :)

Happy Saturday.

*Maybe Sunday for some.
 
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I could afford to buy one but am not willing.don't think it's supply and demand ,have never heard of them have heard of hoffman his prices might be and they are half what the northern want.think I would pay more for kelly registered than any of them
 
Hoffman axes are really very, very nice. I don't have enough steel experience to talk about their visible build.

Any of them for that matter. What if you contacted a "company" and got to talk to the guy that was going to process/pound a piece of steel for you?

Would you pay more? I've asked myself that when I've asked someone to fix/alter something for me for their hot work when squaring up. Good Blacksmithing is a dark art.

I don't know if that applies to the Northmen but it does to some of the guys I've have met locally and here on the forums.
 
Just to be clear, I could not afford a $700 axe. The ensuing divorce would cost me half of everything I own.
 
Oh gosh.

Kevin, you are oversimplifying. I can see where you come from, and in part I agree, but you need to be more thorough if comparing the cost of living.

Let's look at what is the helathcare costs in US vs what you get out of your own pocket when visiting doctors. Then let's consider that for Americans dental is a separate thing. A root canal in Chicago was 1200$ for me (luckily I didn't pay out of my pocket). In Hungary, I could get the same tratement at 10% of that cost (not State-subsidized). And so on.

There are big parts of the economy that don't rely so much or directly on the fuel cost. Some services, software etc. Housing costs something in the Bay area, where software engineers can get 200k salaries, and less in Nebraska :).

I bought antibiotics in Chicago at a certain price. In California, same prescription cost me double. I looked for the cheapest Pharmacies in both instanes. A pound of fruit was again double in sunny California.

Let's not compare Europe as a whole with US as a whole. You have two continents with huge disparities, depending where exactly you live on said continents.

I also don't get why you'd invite someone to visit other countries. Provided I am reading that properly (emphasis), I think it is uncalled for. If you are trying to even hint at the stereotype of the uneducated American, you also need to make sure you're not confirming other stereotypes as well along the way. By the way, it seems to me "we" as Europeans are heading in the wrong direction, we are not getting smarter or more educated at all. (We are hard at work even to erase our identity, but that is another discussion.) I am basing this on statistics and partly my own experience hiring people in high-tech fields, and not as an ignorant HR guy. But as a software engineer and manager.

All in all, and this is not directed at you, in fact not necessarily at anyone here, I will never get the outrage over what some believe to be inflated prices. I will acknowledge that some don't make sense to me, from a price to performance ratio, and I would not pay so much even if I were a billionare. However, as long as no one is forcing things down my throat, I couldn't care less. (Sometimes, though, it is simply ignorance on a buyer's part. You get the kind of people that don't understand why a performance-bred animal like a greyhound, with finely-tuned genetics, costs more than a "greyhound" they can get from their local shelter. Idiots. In this particular case, steel is steel, so it does not apply.)

I don't have time, nor the inclination lately to enter debates, so, hoping I'm not antagonizing anyone if possible (Kevin :) or someone else :) ), this will be my only input on this subject.
 
Curt Hal said:
Just to be clear, I could not afford a $700 axe. The ensuing divorce would cost me half of everything I own.
Click to expand...
It's sort of like belonging to a shooting club. It's common knowledge (or joke) amongst the wives that men never pay more than $500 for a nice gun. However at a major sporting clays tournament a month ago the number of 15 to 20K Berettas, Perazzis and Krieghoffs around was staggering. Made me feel like a basket case with a 42 year old Remington 3200.
 
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