Creationish Vs Evolutionism? BE POLITE!

What do you believe? (private)

  • Biblical Creationism (please explain)

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  • Christian Evolution (please explain)

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  • Non Christian Creation (please explain)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Non Christian Evolution (please explain)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Non Christian Science (please explain)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Christian Science (please explain)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • inexplicable (creation cannot be explained through current science or religion))

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Other. Please explain in your post! :)

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    0
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I believe the bible as a whole is true. 2 timothy 3:16 "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness" I suppose you want my reasoning for believing the bible?



I don't think it's beyond our ability to understand anything about God. I believe that some things he reveals and some just like 9/11 we simply cannot understand; there is a purpose behind why that and other bad things happen or God, because he is absolutely just, would stop them. I'm not saying we cannot know specifically how he made us but that he might choose to show us he might not.

Trying very hard to refrain from getting political and derailing this thread.
911 happened because people was brainwashed into unquestioningly believing a religious dogma and committed great Violence in the name of there beliefs.
while I don't believe in the existence of objective morality there are many instances in history that humans abuse religion and commit disgusting acts, I don't believe a loving creator would condone or allow many of these travesty's.
what plan was there for the crusades, why are infants raped in africa because people believe that having sex with a virgin will cure them? what about genocides such as the holocaust what purpose did that serve?

I fear that blind faith leads to some disgusting things.
 
It's funny. I've heard creationists argue against science, because they believe that if we don't have faith in a Loving God, that we won't treat each other nicely. It's really really hard to believe that people can be so ignorant.
 
You guys are starting to name call and belittle...

While I am a bible believing Christian, I also have a mind of my own. I have enjoyed this discussion without murmuring 1 word against anyone's beliefs. Let's not wreck a very interesting thread.
 
The main reason I can't fully agree with evolution is just how complex some of life is. Eyeballs, for example, could not have evolved. It's simply impossible. The number of parts that all have to work together flawlessly would never have evolved together in the right unison for natural selection to decide "Yeah, lets keep this." It's more likely that your keys will morph into a Sebenza in your pocket.
Actually, that's exactly what happened. Keep in mind that evolution (and all of these adaptations) have taken place over BILLIONS (4.6) of years. It's almost impossible to fathom that amount of time.
 
You guys are starting to name call and belittle...

While I am a bible believing Christian, I also have a mind of my own. I have enjoyed this discussion without murmuring 1 word against anyone's beliefs. Let's not wreck a very interesting thread.

I think it was Timothy Keller that said " no one ever argued their way into Heaven" .
It took me a while to fully realize what that meant, aside from the obvious.
 
You guys are starting to name call and belittle...

While I am a bible believing Christian, I also have a mind of my own. I have enjoyed this discussion without murmuring 1 word against anyone's beliefs. Let's not wreck a very interesting thread.

where is the name calling happening? I believe intent is being misconstrued and I apologize for any confusion caused.
 
Actually, that's exactly what happened. Keep in mind that evolution (and all of these adaptations) have taken place over BILLIONS (4.6) of years. It's almost impossible to fathom that amount of time.


[youtube]mb9_x1wgm7E[/youtube][/QUOTE]
 
Trying very hard to refrain from getting political and derailing this thread.
911 happened because people was brainwashed into unquestioningly believing a religious dogma and committed great Violence in the name of there beliefs.
while I don't believe in the existence of objective morality there are many instances in history that humans abuse religion and commit disgusting acts, I don't believe a loving creator would condone or allow many of these travesty's.
what plan was there for the crusades, why are infants raped in africa because people believe that having sex with a virgin will cure them? what about genocides such as the holocaust what purpose did that serve?

I fear that blind faith leads to some disgusting things.

I was not meaning to "get political", merely using it as example. God does not in the least condone evil of any kind; condoning and allowing are different. my point is that we cannot comprehend a purpose for those type of things but by the just character of God unless it serves a great purpose he would stop it it.
 
You guys are starting to name call and belittle...

While I am a bible believing Christian, I also have a mind of my own. I have enjoyed this discussion without murmuring 1 word against anyone's beliefs. Let's not wreck a very interesting thread.


If you are talking about my comment, I have to apologize, I can see how it could be misconstrued as name calling. I was only referencing how a huge amount of violence has been committed in the name of MY (yours too?) lord.
A lot of folks seem to be ignorant of this fact, and want to blame 'evil' on the other side.
 
Can you explain (examples) ?

Just to mention one: the Darwin's finches in the Galápagos islands: after studying their genome, it was determined that the 13 (not 14) species began to separate between 1 and 3 millions years ago; te same with the differents species of hominids that are constantly being discovered and are making the experts to rethink the dates of the appearance of the first true humans. The fact that sicentis haven't been able to map the complete genealogic tree of the human race for lack of all the fossil evidence, means just that the haven't been found, not that they don't exist.
 
So, how far back do you accept? A common ancestor with other apes (speciation through arti and lucy up to modern man)? What about back to other mammals? the rRNA Phylogenetic tree is pretty well supported. Unless god wanted to just make it LOOK like we have a common ancestor with every living thing, it's pretty strong evidence.

Let's begin with simple facts:
1- No fossil can determine external appearance of extinct organisms.

[video=youtube;WtDN6CsL588]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtDN6CsL588[/video]

2- Homology doesn't prove ancestry. (http://www.gawaher.com/topic/740272-similar-organs-homology-evidence-for-evolution/)

Now: What I accept ?As someone said before, it's not about me . It's about the evidence.

Apes :
1- (speciation through arti and lucy up to modern man) No evidence yet.
2- Do yo mean Ardi ? Read this:http://www.uncommondescent.com/huma...ree-29-of-discover-mags-top-100-stories-2010/
http://www.icr.org/article/4982/
http://www.icr.org/article/5489/372/
3- Lucy is problematic too.
http://www.darwinismrefuted.com/origin_of_man_02.html

That's why you shouldn't give much attention to any propaganda till you know the evidence yourself.

Phylogenetic tree:
It's not "well supported, the opposite is true,
http://www.darwinismrefuted.com/myht_of_homology_05.html

Do orthologous gene phylogenies really support tree-thinking?
Excerpt: We conclude that we simply cannot determine if a large portion of the genes have a common history.,,, CONCLUSION: Our phylogenetic analyses do not support tree-thinking.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15913459

How stands the Tree of Life a century and a half after The Origin? - Maureen A O'Malley - Eugene V Koonin - July 2011
Excerpt of Conclusion: The irrefutable demonstration by phylogenomics that different genes in general have distinct evolutionary histories made obsolete the belief that a phylogenetic tree of a single universal gene such as rRNA or of several universal genes could represent the “true” TOL.
http://www.biology-direct.com/content/pdf/1745-6150-6-32.pdf

LOOK like we have a common ancestor
If you mean with apes, It's subjective and relative to other animals.
PT-AM659_APES2_D_20091002160236.jpg

b5dcec8f7b.jpg


If we have common ancestor, Do we expect something like this ?
45276_137192139765851_1112755848_n.jpg
 
1. We can tell a lot about a creature from its skeleton. Size, approximate weight, how it moved, what it ate (generally speaking), etc. And some fossils include impressions of exterior features, feathers, scales, skin texture, etc. Depends on the type of fossil. Do we know everying about it? No, of course not, nor is anyone saying 100% this is what something looked like - but we can make some very good deductions from skeletal remains.

2. Homology doesn't prove ancestry, but in combination with other evidences can be taken as supporting evidence.

Apes: I'm rolling with scientific consensus on this one. Sorry. And peer reviewed journals are preferred in citations. It may prove to be wrong... I expect someone who can prove it is, will get a nobel. But in the meantime, the vast majority of evidence points clearly to our common ancestry with the other apes. We can argue about which hominid belongs where in that ancestry, and which ones were evolutionary dead ends, but the principle remains unchallenged - only the specific path we took is in question, not that the path exists.

The phylogenetic tree has been supported, and where it did not mesh with the earlier fossil based tree, that one has been re-categorized and reassessed in light of new evidence (who knew that whales were more closely related to cows ... pretty cool). That self correction is what makes science great. New information = re-assessing our understanding. The links you provide do not refute evolution, they refute that there is a simple tree we can follow. There may be complicated networks of interrelated evolutionary chains (per your Biology Direct link), but the principles of evolution itself are not in question. (see page 11, the conclusion)

Looking “beyond the TOL (tree of life)”, we are inclined to believe that the use of the TOL as a heuristic to organize and analyse comparative data and partial trees will be with us for the long haul. Whether there is life remaining in the TOL beyond this usage or whether it has to be replaced by new, probably web-like representations of genome evolution, is a question of major interest for phylogenomic studies and will continue to inspire research far into the future

Again, I'm not basing this simply on how things look. There is more evidence than our physical appearance (and in the case of the apes, our genetic code) that makes use group man as an ape.

As for your last picture - it rather misses the point of population sizes 5-10 million years ago, as well as the rarity of fossilization in general. But the fossil record is more complete that it lets on, and when supported with other data and evidence, becomes very hard to simply dismiss.

We are constantly learning more, and reassessing what we know. When you show me a way to test for creation, and explain how it accounts for the mountains of evidence we have that points towards evolution ... we can do that too.
 
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Natural selection is not only mutated traits that stay for the better. The human trait for having 6 finger is dominant to having 5 fingers. So why don't we all have 6 fingers? It's because the 6th finger is never connected to a bone or anything, it's just there. So it serves no purpose and the people with 5 finger on each hand had better luck at gathering resources. This led to the 5 finger people out populating the 6 finger people.

It's all about favorable traits that lead to better survivability. It's about outcompetiting for resources.
I was totally blown away by the amount of people who believe in creationism. Maybe you guys are all just a little bit older generation. All my relatives that live near me(several dozen) are devout born agains and when I have sleep overs with my cousins, they even pray before going to sleep. But the general census I take is that they believe in evolution, there's just SOOOOOOOOOOOO much evidence. If you guys would take a course on evolution, maybe you would be swayed. Not saying you aren't educated, just not educated on genetics.

Then again, I have a different way of determine what to believe. My main argument against the christian religion I brought up in grade school was "How can I believe something that lies to me frequently". Did the townspeople believe the boy who cried wolf after a while? Some could say I have a lack of taking faith in something. Though that isn't true, I believe in other things even when there is no evidence to support my belief. I was brought up as a catholic and went to sunday school till 5th grade and all that. But I hated it. Even when I was in 1st or 2nd grade I didn't really believe in God. I'm like, we have ancient cultures thousands and thousands of years old with fossils millions of years old, the universe couldn't possibly be created a few thousand years ago. I needed evidence, that's the kind of person I am. I have a hard time believing others except when they show me evidence. I'm a very analytical person, very math orientated, and I have a good BS detector, and when I learn about religions it goes off. How is it that there are thousands of religions and they all say the same thing "believe in our dieties and what we tell you" despite having no evidence.

Even if god created everything, why would he create fossils millions of years old? Just to confuse us? Just to test our faith?
 
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How so? A strawman is a misrepresentation of someones argument in order to make it easier to defeat. Stating that man evolved from chimpanzees might be used as a straw man, but not my statement that no scientists are saying so. The only people who claim that man evolved from chimps are creationists (rather, they are claiming that evolutionists say that) ... not scientists arguing for evolution. Scientists claim that chimpanzees and man came from a common ancestor some 10 million or so years ago.

At best, my statement was a "no true scotsman" fallacy. :D
 
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That is a problem that I've run into. Creationists that I talk to either have no idea what evolution is, or they're just trying to use this strawman argument to make evolution look crazy. But many of them will say that with evolution you can start with a duck and get a crocodile or something to that effect. Ymmv
 
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