Custom Knife Orders that NEVER Appear?

thoughts from the unknown side: i am one of those guys with no waiting list. once i had three people waiting for knives, and it was stressful. i knew if the first one did not pass my standards, i would have to start over then all 3 knives would be late and i would feel like an ass. although i envy all you guys with waiting lists, and secretly wish i was a big time popular and in demand maker, having orders would drive me nuts :D i just put knives up for sale after they are finished and it has remained a fun hobby.
 
All that said, I'd much rather make knives and offer for sale and for shows.

I'd just like to add as a secondary line of thought, that I have almost always purchased through shows, or knives makers have already made. Many collectors prefer seeing before purchasing. It requires a really good meeting of the minds between maker and buyer for an order that's been around awhile to be really right on, once completed. That's really not a problem when the buyer and maker are attuned though previous transactions, but in a new buyer/maker relationship, that's not always the case at all.

I'm with you, Don. If I were a maker, I would rather build, then sell - and never take an order.
 
After establishing a consistent rate of about 24 knives per year, I took a new job involving lots of travel. That really put a kink in things, and I had to close my books. I'll entertain a request here and there, but mostly I have a backlog I'd like to offer old enthusiasts. To an earlier poster's comment, since I do this 'for fun', that means I have to estimate that I'm only selling maybe half of what I make. The rest are experiments, scraps, gifts, etc. Sometimes other stuff gets moved around due to heat-treat batch timing, not enough concentrated time for a complicated piece, etc. That means at most a dozen knives a year actually involve payment. A 'two year list' isn't all that long on paper, if you look at it that way.

Unfortunately shows aren't a great venue for most. Several local businesses have offered to carry my stuff, but I can't make 'em fast enough to satisfy existing customers AND build up inventory for retail. It's really gotta be one or the other, it seems.
 
This topic was relevant. I recall this hard-learned conversation was posted online in 2005 and it was SO relevant to understand, I copied and saved it.

At the time it was groundbreaking. It's from an email sent from Mike Snody, who I hope is doing well, although he has stopped making knives at present. (I hope it's only a hiatus).

(Social media is not even mentioned yet. )

****

It was most certainly a Status Symbol in the industry to "Have a five year backlog"

Wow!! What security!! What a great deal!! If I work hard maybe someday I can have a "Five Year Backlog" and all they great things that go along with it!!!

Fast Forward about a year and the Internet is Exploding!!!!!

Knife Forums, Knifemaker Websites, Knife Purveyors, Virtual Knife Shows, Knifemaking Communities, Online Knife Magazines, etc, etc, etc!!!

The internet was on fire and any knifemaker who had a decent website was hooked up like a sled dog. Seriously just about any knifemaker who had a cool site was completely covered up in work.

I had an article come out that year and in one weekend my backlog went from 6 months to well over 5 years!! In one night (Saturday) I received over 170 orders. Many of these orders were for multiple knives in fact one order alone was for 148 pieces and eventually increased to 172 individual knives and sheaths!!

Fast Forward a couple years!!!

The Internet is Saturated with Knifemakers and the Thinning has begun!!!

All the guys who had the nice websites and crummy knives are now on their way out. Most of you remember some of the Legends of the day: Blade, Corkum, Griffith and many, many more who were ultimately ousted as frauds.

At this point I am so deep in orders that I cant see light!! I have suspended taking new orders yet I still receive money in envelopes, checks, email orders and multiple phone calls daily. I send money and checks back to people, I respond to dozens of emails daily saying "thank you but I am not taking orders" I answer the phone several times a day to say "thanks but I am not taking orders" I attend knife shows and sell out in 10 minutes then spend two days telling friends and clients "sorry not taking orders"

I discover new methods of knifemaking and new materials that I want to explore but I am working on an order for 172 Carolina Skinners with identical wood handles. Three years into the process I am building orders that are four years old. I continue to get further behind because I keep accepting "special orders". Many individuals become frustrated while waiting five years for a knife that was promised in three and rightfully so. Some individuals just go NUTS and leave multiple messages screaming and cussing even though I did not accept their deposits or have any of their money.

I respond to emails over a five year period providing status, excuses, explaining why I am behind, accepting modifications to old orders, handle changes, blade an inch longer, etc, etc, etc,

The knife order that was placed in 2001 is now nearly five years old.

Lets say for argument's sake that the actual knife requires 10 hours labor to complete. I now have close to 10 hours of correspondence associated with the piece and I havent even started it yet. In fact I just fell another month behind because I have to move to a different state and set up a new shop.

Now a second Thinning is taking place, this time its not the scam artist knifemaker.

This time it's the Honest Knifemaker who is swamped in three to five year old orders. He quoted prices when the orders were placed and he intends to honor those prices. The problem is fuel costs have nearly doubled, Material Costs in many cases have increased 300 percent, rent is up, insurance is up, health care is up, machinery costs and consumables are up 30 to 40% and homie is working seven days a week digging himself in deeper and deeper with each knife he completes.

The market has completely changed but homie is still building 2001 patterns with ivory micarta handles because he got 200 orders for them after his article ran in Blade Magazine.

He sadly announces on his favorite knifemaking forum that he is going out of business.

He lost his ass and now he is working in Walmart!!!

I have been a fulltime knifemaker for the past four years.

My entire income is 100% knife related and my shop is open to the public.

I have struggled with taking orders, suspending orders, taking orders, suspending orders and I have come to the conclusion that it is impossible for me to manage a successful operation while adhering to the "business model" of knifemaker who accepts orders.

The past four years have clearly demonstrated to me that the "knifemakers business model" of taking orders and maintaining a multi-year backlog is antiquated and no longer an acceptable method for SnodyKnives to employ.

I have never accepted deposits and most peoples lives change over a Five Year Period. When you get that Skinner with Mastodon Ivory and the Frog Sheath finished and find out that Mr Jones(who waited five years) just got a divorce and is homeless that opens up a whole other issue. What do you do with all the people who back out of an order?? I certainly dont blame anyone because Lord Knows I have had my share of bad luck but how do you manage this issue and operate a profitable business. Personally I would rather just forget the whole "order fiasco knifemaker business model" and sell them when they are finished. That way if a client has the money he can get the piece within a week. He can get it while he is still excited not five years later after his Ex put him in the poor house.

The decision to never again accept orders is about survival for SnodyKnives.

SnodyKnives will move forward with small limited batches of collectible, modern, high performance knives that will be offered for sale only after they have been completed and are ready to ship.

We will maintain a Notification List and contact individuals when a model they are interested is being constructed.

When a new material shows up on the market I will be able to immediately incorporate it into my designs. I will constantly introduce new patterns and designs that I feel reflect current advancements in materials and technology. I am talking about New Designs Weekly, not every couple of years.

I have an obligation to every individual who purchases a Snody Knife to work hard and continue to promote the "Snody" brand and ensure that their knife will hold its value in the aftermarket.

****
This opened my eyes up. Props to Mike for his 'realist' views. ;)
 
Man I miss Mike at shows

He is a great guy

I believe at that time Mike should of become a knife company

I believe he tried to go that route but it's hard to go from a maker to a company owner

I hope he comes back soon :)

Ps

I can remember his tables would sell out in minutes ...... I miss him
 
Mike Snody just posted on Instagram he is moving into his new knife studio located in Walsenburg Colorado ! :)
 
Long, but GOOD read. Ten years ago....

Very good read! Coop is very observant. :D

^^^My thoughts exactly. That was an excellent read. Mr. Snody's assessment is as relevant today as it was then, maybe more so.

In fact, it's interesting that this thread came up today as I've been mulling this topic over for the past month or so and finally decided to make some changes. I've just this evening closed my books and there are a lot of posts in this thread that are relevant to my situation.

I'm another maker that is guilty of longer than promised wait times and an order list that's too long. It's all excuses, albeit valid and real ones.

Another thing to consider that most makers know but many others do not (though most I've spoken to about it are very understanding) is that a full time maker is a one man show. There are no co-workers to pick up the slack if I get taken away from my shop for any of the various reasons that happen all the time. If the sink backs up and overflows, or the toilet, or a pipe starts leaking and ruins your carpet and drywall in the master bath and living room, or the roof starts leaking, or the car needs fixed, or the ice dam on the roof cleared and the driveway shoveled so the wife can get to work, or the kids are sick and can't go to school or daycare, or whatever else (all those things happened to me in the past few months)....I'm it. I'm the guy that takes care of all that stuff. And if I'm dealing with those things, I'm not making my knives and no one else is making them for me while I'm dealing with that stuff.

Add on top of that all of the folks that think that just because you're 'at home' you're 'not doing anything important'. Sometimes the wife, mom, dad, brothers and buddies forget that you're still supposed to be doing a job and you're still AT WORK, even though your home.

All I'm saying is it's pretty easy to get behind because you still need to eat and play with your kids and spend time with your wife.
 
Well, I think that when a collector may be waiting for years for his name to come up, you run into a lot of possible issues. Tastes change, financial situations change, etc etc. But I agree, it is a two-way street. The best system I have seen is when a maker is totally transparent and periodically shares his order list so that everyone on it can see exactly where they are and the status of the list.

If a maker contacts me out of the blue after I've been waiting for years, I may not be in a position to move forward with the order. Custom knives are pretty damn expensive these days and I know that I have to plan carefully for those purchases.

On another unrelated note, I find it a little annoying when a maker states that his books are years long and he can't get to my order for a very long time, but yet that same maker manages to pump out plenty of pieces for dealers and buddies. The knife community is pretty small in many ways and it's pretty obvious when that happens.


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Great encapsulation of the issue from the collector's stance.

One very memorable situation I had been in was a maker who, over the course of two years, simply would never respond to any of my emails or PMs. At that point I thought it was surely a done deal, either he is so swamped with life/knifemaking that it would be best to simply let it go, or he was intentionally avoiding contact. Well, I get an irate email out of the blue one week, a whole additional year later, saying that he had been trying to get into contact with me... it had been so long since my 'wait-list' time had been up that I had gotten a new phone and phone number and he had been trying to call the old one. As you can imagine I didn't hold on to the knife he made for me for very long, but by then the collector hype had died down anyhow and I received less for the knife than maker's price. You have to imagine situations like this would leave a sour taste in the mouths of everyone involved.

Another instance was a maker who constantly makes knives for lottery and auction... well, I had won one of his knives in an open bid and it just happened to be close to the date when my spot on his list was to come up... this maker told me my order would be delayed (after previous delays adding up to 4 or 5 months) because he was 'behind in his schedule' and that I shouldn't mind waiting because I had just won a knife from him in the open bid auction. I was stunned.
 
Is it wrong to have an orderlist of, say, a year or so and still have knives available at a show? Not talking about buddyknives or knives squeesed in between orders?
Just asking for opinions because it is useless to have an empty table at a show.
 
Is it wrong to have an orderlist of, say, a year or so and still have knives available at a show? Not talking about buddyknives or knives squeesed in between orders?
Just asking for opinions because it is useless to have an empty table at a show.

There is no right or wrong my friend it's what ever business model works for you

This is where the no deposits conversation comes into play

If you have no ones money than you don't really owe them anything .....

I think makers get in trouble when they do take people's money and do not deliver than the consumer sees them at a show with a table full of knives and gets upset

Many makers run their business successfully taking orders and deposits .....many can't
 
Is it wrong to have an orderlist of, say, a year or so and still have knives available at a show? Not talking about buddyknives or knives squeesed in between orders?
Just asking for opinions because it is useless to have an empty table at a show.

Hmmm....

Maybe you have a table full of knives that never got paid for because the people did not leave a deposit :)
 
I've had so many orders never completed I've lost count! I saw Don post, "squeaky wheel". I swore I'd never follow up on an order, if you don't want my money that's OK. I always cautioned new makers that orders weren't sales, you actually had to make the knife! I ordered from 5 makers at the Arkansas Show in 2001, two of the makers delivered, Jody Muller and Ron Newton.
 
There is no right or wrong my friend it's what ever business model works for you
This is where the no deposits conversation comes into play
If you have no ones money than you don't really owe them anything .....
I think makers get in trouble when they do take people's money and do not deliver than the consumer sees them at a show with a table full of knives and gets upset
Many makers run their business successfully taking orders and deposits .....many can't

Perhaps not from a legal perspective, however when a knifemaker takes an order he/she is basically giving their word or making a promise to the collector. So from a moral perspective they owe the collector a knife.

Is it wrong to have an orderlist of, say, a year or so and still have knives available at a show? Not talking about buddyknives or knives squeesed in between orders?
Just asking for opinions because it is useless to have an empty table at a show.

I don't think so Erik, as taking/delivering orders is a totally different aspect of your business than building knives for a show. I expect most knifemakers (especially full-timers) need income from both to keep their
businesses healthy.
By starting this thread, I'm certainly not suggesting that knifemakers stop taking orders, just that they should try to manage their order lists in a manner that allows them to fulfill their commitments.
 
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Interesting discussion. As a full-time maker the build and sell model doesn't work for me. Neither does constantly filling orders for intricate art knives that take a lot of time and concentration. Right now I'm telling customers to expect about a 2 year wait. I might need to increase that a bit. In that time frame I try to account for shows and special runs of knives. I've had to throw in a lower end order or two while filling a high end order to pay the bills. I also don't usually feel like diving into a two week long project right on the heels of another two week long project....be honest, a fellow can only stomach so much checkering in a month:eek:.
This last year has seen me fall behind on my order list. I got married and moved the shop...these things take time:) ;)
Hopefully I can catch up over the next year...life happens. Don't take deposits and you don't owe people anything.
If you're on my list, I'm working your way:).
 
Regarding Shows:

I learned long ago, that Shows are a necessary inclusion for the maker's promotion and extended viability. If you want this maker to survive, you need to allow this.

Every single one of us knows the value of actually handling a knife, and actually shaking a hand, and how that impacts (most effectively!) the experience.

It's hard for a maker to do both: create a small tableful of clever knives for immediate sale, and to have to tell his client his 'special order' is still pending.

A savvy maker should/can/ought to address this in his communication. And.... the savvy maker can use these knives as a means of exploration. Here's a knife I wanted to make, with new techniques, and it's up for grabs.

This also gives the SHOW the importance: Be there, and you may jump ahead five squares with a completed piece. :thumbup:

A table full of business cards is disappointing. :(

(While you are there don't let that one-of-a-kind knife get sold without a *pro photo*.... ;))
 
I'm new at this, so I'm trying to figure it out as I go. With my private practise, I have a well defined business plan that I follow. I haven't been that strict with my knifemaking. I don't want this to turn into a job. However, as interest in my work has increased, I'm feeling pressures that are much more job like. That really decreases my drive to make knives. I'm not making as many projects just because they inspire me, but because they are owed to people. At this point in my journey, I need to "tool up" to decrease the inefficiencies in production, such as the amount of time I spend hand sanding. I even farmed out sheath making to a friend with interest in leatherwork.

My order list is about 6months. I don't make knives designed by others. My customers let me design my knives for their application. This part is working well. I want to make a few knives for local shows, but feel guilty when I know people are waiting. I'm often behind because of life in general. My wife struggles with depression, after a mini stroke, and I have ADHD and SAD. Both are reasonably well treated, but present challenges. I get most orders out within a week or two of my deadlines. I tried pushing back the deadlines, but I dick around until the pressure builds (an ADHD thing). I gave some health issues with peripheral neuropathy, really affecting when I can do detail work. It's unpredictable. Right now I have four nearly completed projects that are waiting for my hands to cooperate with the final finish work. I mention this because we have to be honest with ourselves with our strengths and weaknesses. When I'm focused, and my neuropathy is good, I can produce like crazy. Bad nerves, and distractibility means nothing gets done. I'm slower in the winter than the summer.

I have a custom knife ordered from a well known maker who isn't making knives anymore. It's been a few years now. My circumstance changed and I'm not overly upset by that now. I did send a few handle blocks for the project. It would be nice to get them back, but it's small potatoes in the grand scheme.

I wonder how many makers keep poor records, or forget who's ordered from them due to ADHD? It seems pretty common in artisans, and in knifemakers specifically. It's treatable too, but a lot of people are suspicious of treating ADHD.
 
I've had so many orders never completed I've lost count! I saw Don post, "squeaky wheel". I swore I'd never follow up on an order, if you don't want my money that's OK. I always cautioned new makers that orders weren't sales, you actually had to make the knife! I ordered from 5 makers at the Arkansas Show in 2001, two of the makers delivered, Jody Muller and Ron Newton.
Hi Win, I like to hear from clients occasionally and in the case where I lost so many contacts with the computer crash, those who contacted me got their knives. Communication is key here and goes both ways.
 
Regarding Shows:

I learned long ago, that Shows are a necessary inclusion for the maker's promotion and extended viability. If you want this maker to survive, you need to allow this.

Every single one of us knows the value of actually handling a knife, and actually shaking a hand, and how that impacts (most effectively!) the experience.

It's hard for a maker to do both: create a small tableful of clever knives for immediate sale, and to have to tell his client his 'special order' is still pending.

A savvy maker should/can/ought to address this in his communication. And.... the savvy maker can use these knives as a means of exploration. Here's a knife I wanted to make, with new techniques, and it's up for grabs.

This also gives the SHOW the importance: Be there, and you may jump ahead five squares with a completed piece. :thumbup:

A table full of business cards is disappointing. :(

(While you are there don't let that one-of-a-kind knife get sold without a *pro photo*.... ;))

I've been thinking about making a few knives in my more standard designs that I could take to shows that are not for sale. I used to show NFS reptiles when I bred them so people could see first hand what my stock is like. An empty table doesn't work. People could see and feel examples of the work.
 
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