Custom knife prices

Keith Montgomery

Keith Montgomery

Joined
May 9, 2000
Messages
29,205
I would like to get an idea of what the people on this forum think of the pricing of custom knives.

Over the years I have seen quite a few posts from people that think that custom knives are overpriced. After all they post, materials for making knives are only so many dollars, and if you add a few dollars for shop supplies, utilities, shop space, etc, there is no way that custom knives should cost what they do. I'm trying to get an idea how many think this way.

I'm sure that there are many overpriced custom knives, just like there are many underpriced ones, but as a whole, do you believe that custom knives are priced at a level that mirrors what they are really worth.
 
in the scheme of things , no , definitely not overpriced from the maker. Secondary , is another story altogether.

After all they post, materials for making knives are only so many dollars, and if you add a few dollars for shop supplies, utilities, shop space,
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Those who claim it all adds up to a few dollars , more than likely havent made a knife , or anything in a shop environment to see all the supplies , tools , and time required . A few dollars is selling it way short.

Look at getting a custom 1911 built , check the labor rates , most of the smiths don't make the frame and slides , yet because of all the work involved , the costs add up fast.

Ever commissioned a shop for a custom paint job on your car ? Check their shop rate !
If knife makers charged a flat rate like mechanics , gunsmiths , or other craftsman/repairman do. The knives would be far more pricey.

Frankly I am surprised at how low some of the prices are ( again from the maker , not secondary ).
 
Keith Montgomery said:
I'm sure that there are many overpriced custom knives, just like there are many underpriced ones, but as a whole, do you believe that custom knives are priced at a level that mirrors what they are really worth.
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The ones I buy certainly are.

I think it would be pretty tough to generalize on the correctness of pricing across the entire spectrum of custom knives. I am certainly not qualified to offer such an opinion.

At Blade, looking closely at a great deal of forged fixed blades, my overall impression is that pricing was about right. Some were - let's say - a bit ambitious in their prices, but among that group a great many sold out so others clearly had a different view.

"What they are worth" from my perspective as a collector, is more a function of design, execution, quality of workmanship and market position of the maker than it is of materials used.

Roger
 
As a part-time maker by choice, I set up at only a couple of shows. I don't have a website though I am considering one for the future. I take orders from people who have seen or heard of my work, and this keeps me back-ordered over a year. I give credit to my ABS Master Smith rating since I do no advertizing other than a few business cards in my wallet. I guess the occasional photo here at the forums doesn't hurt either!

A common adage that venders use at shows is, "If you sold out, your prices were too low!" If people are willing to pay high prices for fine cutlery, then the price must be at least right, if not a bit low. Frankly, I'm always a little bit embarrassed (and amazed) to accept a thousand dollars or more for one of my knives. But you know, the people who buy those knives never try to talk me down and they are always grinning as they walk away.

I'll never get rich off bladesmithing but after I retire I should be able to keep a little extra income rolling in. As long as it never becomes work I'll be content.

Cheers,

Terry Vandeventer
 
Of course the buyer or collector wants to get the best knives at the lowest prices. That's the American way...

But for someone to really understand how much a knife ought to *cost*..... well, that person really ought to try and make a knife. Even handmade knives with the most economical of materials require a surprising amount of time to design, fabricate, and assemble.

To make a knife *costs* me, sometimes in flesh and blood!

Andy
 
Keith Montgomery said:
Over the years I have seen quite a few posts from people that think that custom knives are overpriced. After all they post, materials for making knives are only so many dollars, and if you add a few dollars for shop supplies, utilities, shop space, etc, there is no way that custom knives should cost what they do. I'm trying to get an idea how many think this way.

I'm sure that there are many overpriced custom knives, just like there are many underpriced ones, but as a whole, do you believe that custom knives are priced at a level that mirrors what they are really worth?
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Anyone who thinks that a custom knife that IS priced fairly is overpriced has not tried to make a knife up to the level of the best work available.

There are many, many different skills involved, but the finish work is often what separates the good from the great, and it is also something that is very difficult to comprehend as a beginner.

What is really the difference between the top notch 600 grit hand rubbed finish of Jason Knight, and the 2500 grit hand rubbed finish of Warren Osborne?....many hours and a steady hand. Those hours are not free, although they sure are discounted compared to a plumber's wage.

If I purchase a custom knife, I think the price is fair. WHEN I don't think the price is fair, I share that with the maker, as an invitation to educate me as to how I may be mistaken.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
I build custom watchboxes (see website below) and know from experience that the materials are just a small portion of the effort. I spend many hours making sure everything is right and if I were to pay myself an hourly wage of even a small amount I would have to raise my prices. I know a lot of effort goes into a customs and I don't mind paying for something that is handmade. I have bought a number of customs on this site (too many) and all have been worth it to me

Would a knife box be something people want?

http://2darkwood.com/2DARK WOOD CREATIONS/index.htm
 
Anyone who thinks custom knives are overpriced should not buy custom knives. Anyone who thinks a particular custom knife is overpriced shouldn't buy that particular custom knife. If I like it and "the price is right" (whatever that means at the time), I buy it. If not, I don't.

It's kinda difficult for me to understand someone who bitches about price, but buys anyway.
 
I'm definitely in the "If I like it and can afford it, I buy it" crowd. I don't argue what a person's time and skill are worth.
 
I think most knives are priced right. Whether I can afford them or want them is some other matter, but until propane, coal, electricity, floor space, powerhammers, KMG/Bader/Dozier grinders, knife construction skills, and effective promotion of a maker's knives (should the need to resell ever occurr) are all provided free of charge to custom knifemakers, their products may have prices which have to include all of those expenses and ones I didn't think to rattle out (like food, board, and insurance).
 
-unless prototyping new designs and experimenting with new materials, (which should come at the makers' expense, and not transferred to the customer unless it's a custom order and the customer asks for and is willing to pay for the extra time required by the maker to work with new media and/or new designs) I think most makers should *figure out for themselves* a set number to work with as a shop rate, *and use that as a guide to determine their pricing*.

-there should generally be a standard shop rate as it applies to the experience level of the maker. This is where certification such as Journeyman Smith or Master Smith is so important, such as in other trades.

-the only other factor that should modify the price between makers, materials and experience level being equal, is the amount of time spent on a knife.

-to be fair to him/herself, a knife maker must factor in their costs for equipment and amortise over the lifespan of the equipment those costs, and factor them right into their shop rate. If a maker gets by on less expensive equipment, but charges the same, it's because they are spending more of their time making the knives.

-when it comes to other costs, such as promotion and advertising, these should be seen as 'the cost of doing business', separated from the shop rate, and be taken from the profit. It is useful for a businessperson to figure a rough percentage to spend per year on these things.

-all these considerations are for the maker. For buyers, it's important that there is some transparency when it comes down to what exactly you're paying for. This is where shop rates come in handy.

-unless a buyer is acquiring historically significant pieces, then if you buy direct from the maker you should not be paying more than the shop rate, and the shop rate should have a top out from the maker. For the maker to inflate their shop rate simply because they are popular is a recipe for disaster.

-the added expense of highly finished handmade products can only be justified by the time involved in making them. Time=money, or something.


One thing that I've noticed in researching custom knife dealers on the internets, is an often very large discrepancy in their pricing, from dealer to dealer for virtually identical knives from the same maker. Dealers have the responsibility to have a set margin that is justified simply by the cost of doing business, not their time in running their operation. This margin should not vary too much from dealer to dealer. If they cannot make a profit then it means they're spending too much money, or they need to diversify their inventory, or they need to target their advertising better or they need to provide better customer service.

...and, that's my two cents:) *which I hope could be of use to a new knifemaker starting their own business*
 
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Always good to discuss pricing structure as it leads to understanding why a $1k or several $K knife is worth the price.

It's all about time. Look at what your mechanic charges per shop hr. Probably around $80.00 an hr now. Break that down on a $1k knife.......not that many hrs in to get to the thousand mark. Basically two days work....two short days by self employment standards. I can guarantee you most makers aren't charging $80 per hr. I am working on a high end D guard now..... it's price is $3500, and I have 10 days in it so far. Should finish it late tomorrow. I don't work 8 hr days, most are at least 10 hr days.

I am not trying to paint a picture like we are all slaves working long hrs in a hot and dusty cave, but that the vast majority of hand made knives are providing an HONEST living for the makers.

When you consider that retail markup for most goods are no less than double what the manufacturer gets, hand made knives are a bargain.

Again, compare them to high end guns.....some of which fetch $200,000.00 or more. OK, so they take a year and a half to make.......I would be tickled pink to make that much in 1 1/2 yrs.

On top of all of this, is the fact that many of these knives are one of a kind. That $200,000.00 shotgun isn't one of a kind. Only the wood and engraving vary from one to the other. That may not seem significant, but ask a machine shop to make a one of a kind part. Most won't even do it.......because it doesn't pay enough!! Making one of something means you have unique challenges to each step, and that means different machine settings, new jigs to make and the unknown result of a new technique to get the desired result. All this can easily double the time involved in making a standard model. I have made some of these knives for what turned out to be about $10 an hr. I worked from an established quote to the customer and had to deliver it for that price.
 
Hi Lorien,

Interesting Thought:
One thing that I've noticed in researching custom knife dealers on the internets, is an often very large discrepancy in their pricing, from dealer to dealer for virtually identical knives from the same maker. Dealers have the responsibility to have a set margin that is justified simply by the cost of doing business, not their time in running their operation. This margin should not vary too much from dealer to dealer. If they cannot make a profit then it means they're spending too much money, or they need to diversify their inventory, or they need to target their advertising better or they need to provide better customer service.
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So by the same token, do you feel the makers then have the same responsibility? Not paid for their time, just the costs of doing business. They should live on a "set" margin that doesn't differ to much from maker to maker. If they cannot make a profit than they need to diversify their knives or use advertising better or provide better customer service, example...actually deliver knives on time.
 
Along with the price of materials and hours that go into a knife if the knifemaker is full time might play a role in his/her pricing. It makes sence to me the full time maker has to charge more in order to survive. Also the more desirable your knives are by fit, finish, design etc...plays a big role. Advertising, costs of going to shows, costs of knife related memberships, if you go to any schools like the A.B.S. school or grs engraving school etc...


All these things do add up in a big hurry but the biggest price inflaters are time and what the market will bear for your knives. Make no mistake though if you put a $300 piece of ivory or mammoth on a knife the maker is going to include that into the price along with everthing else.

Chad Carroll
www.carrollknives.com
 
It depends on how you look at it.

Once you factor in more than the knife making materials like titanium, stainless steel both in all different thicknesses, screws in differing lengths and diameters, pins, barrels, bar stock for blades in various steels, heat treating costs, shipping costs, sundries that get used up and need replaced often or semi often like sanding belts, drums both in all manner of grits band saw blades, air conditioning, heating, electric, and other costs you still have that nasty little thing called the small business tax among other taxes to deal with and that still doesn't cover the insurance cost changes from moving to a 'business' orientation vs hobby orientation and the changes that means for what used to be standard homeowners insurance or employees if you have any and workmans comp expenses for that.

Many makers employ their spouse for example. But with all this there are still things I am sure I have neglected to think of and mention.

Now with all this said keep in mind that our dollar is not near as valued as it was just a few years ago. We are only just now beginning to see the changes that are taking place in our own economy and I fear personally that if you think prices are high now just hang on. They are going to have to go up higher because everything else, and I mean everything is going up all around us making it that much harder to keep prices low. It gets to the point that some makers like Mike Obenauf for example, realize if they keep working they are basically paying you to make a knife and continue to do what they do. I'm not suggesting Mike handled his particular situation as well as most would like but I use it here as a recent example of what expenses vs profit can do for a maker. This does not even begin to take into account the fact that its very hard to make a living as a knife maker as your sole source of income to begin with so many of the successful makers have other sources of income, a spouse that carries a good deal of the load, or they were very successful somewhere else before taking off with what used to be a hobby knife making craft. Hope that helps some to cover the uphill climb most makers are facing.

STR
 
I was one who had a hard time justifying some of the prices I saw. I caulked it up to hype for popular makers and a makers experience and supply and demand. A knife was worth what I was willing to pay for it.

Then, I actually talked with makers and saw them at work. Saw the equipment they needed. Saw some of the care and professionalism they put in their knives. Heard them calmly state the pride they had in upholding a tradition, what is kind of a dying art. Saw them agonize over details and "making it right". Saw the formal and informal peer review they go through. Last year, I saw Tim Hancock off to the side of Josh's hammer-in talking with a newer maker, gently but firmly telling him where he went wrong and how to fix it. This year I watched Erik Fritz, bravely in my mind, endure a critique from Tim in front of some really experienced makers...Tim pulled not one punch in a straightforward rebuke and intimated that he expected more from erik, that he KNEW Erik could meet his exacting standard. And, Erik respectfully ate it all up eagerly, though I know it killed him, and promised to do better. I also watched another new maker show Jim Rodebaugh some of his knives and then proceed to deny all his flaws, eventually not paying any attention to what Jim and to say; the disappointment and frustration I saw in Jim's eyes was not really so much about being disrespected, as much as seeing a maker with potential, worthy of showing how to improve, blow a chance at making a better knife and meeting the standard that these guys aspire to. Ironically, I was also witness to some of Mr. Hancock's peers point out flaws, albeit minor, they saw in HIS knifes... I know, I know, HANCOCK doesn't HAVE flaws... I was FLOORED. Anyway, I saw Tim take the comments in stride, acknowledging the critique as valid and appreciating ... but I could see that they killed HIM, too. Not because anyone was picking on him, not because the flaws weren't there (I swear I could spend hours looking for them and only have to guess what they were), but because he had somehow missed the mark of what he knew he could do and his peers had seen it. I'm pretty sure that this experience won't ruin any of them, certainly not Tim, but to see that kind of sincere attention to a craft is rare in these times.

Anyway, I have gone and taken the step any collector worth his salt should do, I have begun making my own knife … with the help of Jim Rodebaugh; I think he agreed to take my money and teach me merely to stop hearing about his EXPENSIVE knives (it gives Jim a nervous tic to have someone else in his shop TOUCHING his stuff, but he thinks it’s worth it). The steel is made, 1084 and 10n32 (I think…Rodebaugh, MS, will kill me if I got that wrong), in a simple random pattern Damascus. The knife is painstakingly designed, after many many attempt at creating something with halfway decent lines. The blade is forged…forged ALL THE WAY to shape including the ricasso, plunges, and shoulders, thank you very much. The blade is finally ground, after 16 hours of practice before I was worthy of even trying it on a real blade. The son-of a bitch is filed properly. The hand sanding on the bastard is complete. The etching is done… and that darling is beautiful!!! In the coming week or so, it will be fitted with a ferrule (bronze, I believe). Then, I get to mold a handle out of the piece of koa I bought last year for this purpose and get THAT attached (and pinned I hope). Naturally, I’ll need to make a sheath for my little gem…I doubt it will be Kydex. Then, I’ll get to put it up for peer review…maybe, in part, here.

My conclusion: No, these knives are not, in the most part, overpriced. And I would hate to have to try and make a living from my meager skills at turning $60 worth of materials and $40 worth of supplies into something worthy of someone buying.

That having been said, I’m thinking about whether I should pay my application and formally register as an apprentice. Dammit, this stuff gets in you blood!!
 
It's funny that people don't seem to take into consideration the brand effect. If shop time and raw materials were the only things going into a knife, few customs would sell for more than the equivalent production knife.

Anyway - my take on the subject is that knives are a relatively cheap art / craft when compared to others. That's largely because it is not considered well, or at all, but the larger arts & crafts community.
 
Lorien said:
One thing that I've noticed in researching custom knife dealers on the internets, is an often very large discrepancy in their pricing, from dealer to dealer for virtually identical knives from the same maker. Dealers have the responsibility to have a set margin that is justified simply by the cost of doing business, not their time in running their operation. This margin should not vary too much from dealer to dealer. If they cannot make a profit then it means they're spending too much money, or they need to diversify their inventory, or they need to target their advertising better or they need to provide better customer service.
Click to expand...

This is just either quite silly or very, very evil.
 
Les,
yes you got it. However the profit is to be made, it goes back to either the business or the owner; dealer, maker or otherwise. Developing a system by which this profit is handled is what I'm saying is important. A knife maker, as any tradesman, has to be fair to their customers, and their going rate is key to this transparency. A dealer doesn't require the same level of transparency, but should endeavour to keep their prices fair, and that's by maintaining consistency. Their margin is their business, in more ways than one.

A dealer needs to figure out how to squeeze enough margin from the products he/she sells in order to maintain a livelihood and grow their business. The long term success of the business depends upon them acting in its best interests.

Gouging is certainly not a good long term business plan for anyone in business for themselves, and transparency goes a long way in proving the fairness of the pricing involved.
 
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