D2 steel, great value, practical utility, heat treat, and USA vs China

scottc3

scottc3

Joined
Oct 11, 2014
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I'm interested in hearing the communities D2 steel experiences, with my thoughts below.

Got on a D2 jag with my male jewelry, um oh Ur, I mean knife addiction. There are just so many interesting implementations with such amazing values. Except for the niggling little fact that Chinese D2 (Cr12Mo?) does not have 1.5% Vanadium, But more like, from memory, .05 percent. yeah except for that little thing.
I trust known brands with track records - Spyderco, Benchmade, Ontario, and ESSE (Taiwan), etc. to use real D2; and I am willing to trust European, the East block, and Russia, because of my personal, and the communities long-term experiences and tests.
Good D2 steel with a decent heat treat is just a great knife steel and excellent value. Time proven.
Problems always occur when substitutions for clear practical engineered materials are used. On top of this little materials problem, is marketing suits that decide to claim Rockwell hardness values that are south of integrity and honor. I know, it's human nature with many negative drivers, that go against form follows function, but isn't that what were supposed to be fighting in this manufacturing/maker/ cottage industry context? I'm a gearhead, tool using geek that would never buy a tool to look at without using it, even if the budget allowed. I'm done and I feel better having vented.
 
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What do you think of Chinese D2? I've often wished for more details on these Chinese "budget" but "good" steels. Actually reading details on Vanadium content and your opinion as to purported hardness is useful info. Whatabout Chinese "440C"?

If any drop in and tell me to "not support Chinese slave labor" or the like, I'll just quit following the thread. I've found that to be easiest.
 
davek14, I do not own any Chinese D2, and I'm interested in that steels ownership experience. Seems from my end user understanding that significantly less Vanadium would mean edges that are not as long lasting compared to 1.5%. Have heard that 440c is good basic steel but not up to D2 as lower cost beater tools. At this point in my learning curve Im thinking about the OKC Rat or BK?/Esse knives because I have enough info to believe that steel is the normal 1.5% Vanadium at lower Rockwell that end where Benchmade begins (60). I'm willing to save for a few more months to drop on other D2 folders if other brand owners are happy; 50 to 70 bucks is a wall where I begin to look over at Spyderco n BM products with just a little more patience for saving. My hope is bringing current informative D2 experiences to the light.
 
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I own one Chinese D2 bladed knife, which I decided to re-bevel by hand down to a complete zero grind, by hand on an edge pro. Over the course of many, many hours, one broken 120grit stone, a largely worn out 180grit DMT stone, and almost .25oz less weight on the knife I achieved my goal. I could not believe how much effort it took to knock that thing down.

My experience is that Chinese D2 is really hard, really tough, and holds an edge quite well.
 
You need around 3%-4% Vanadium before it starts playing a part in wear resistance. At that precentage its used more for grain refinement. The main carbide former in D2 is chromium @ 11-12%, forming much softer chromium carbides that are easily sharpened by synthetic stones.

D2 is an old steel, developed in WWII it's a semi stainless tool steel that works well at a wide range of hardness and edge finishes. At typical hardnesses found with production knives it's much tougher than it's often lead to believe. I've used and abused a few D2 blades over the years and one thing it's never lacked is toughness. Sharpening can be a little tougher but decent stones can make all the difference, though I will say a Bob Dozier and some Ontario fixed blades you will want diamonds for.
 
There is so much disinfo here it is just becoming a joke now. 4-5% vanadium is necessary to have actual wear resistance rather than grain refinement? Some of you really don't understand metallurgy. At all.

I've always held my tongue here, but it's getting ridiculous.

Take Cru forge V for example. It only has 0.75% vanadium ( that's right folks.....zero point seven five). That is more than plenty for "grain refinement". If you want to disagree, take a look at the micrographs of CFV with the PRIMARY VANADIUM CARBIDES that litter that martensite matrix. If that doesn't do it, try hand sanding a CFV blade vs a W2 blade.

The reality is that just about any modern steel ( stainless, tool, low alloy carbon) is that 0.20% vanadium is for grain refinement. It's actually lower than that. Above that, especially with carbon contents above 1%, you will have primary vanadium carbides that will greatly aid in wear resistance.

If there is D2 out there with 1.5% vanadium (all else equal like purity, Cr content, Carbon content), then that D2 (properly heat treated) will be great steel (can we assume equal geometry? I get sick of threads that everyone wants to say ooooh but geometry plays a role, in every thread. Like we learn one thing and have to apply it to every question out there. Let's just start assuming geometry is equal? After all we aren't talking geometry, but steel and heat treatment.)

Jason, I appreciate your sharpening skills and knowledge. But to say that you need 4-5% vanadium for actual wear resistance is just not true. At all.

Now, some of you might retort and say "isn't a steel with 4% vanadium compared to 1% vanadium more wear resistant?" Uhhhh. Yeah. It is. But to say that you need that much to go beyond "grain refinement" is not true at all. And just so we all understand, vanadium carbide disollution temps are pretty damn high. That is to say, they remain regardless of the heat treatment. (You'll break them apart with super ridiculous high forging temps, at which damage has been done to the matrix itself, but they'll reform upon cooling). Hence their "grain refinement" properties. They don't shrink grain, they prevent it from growing.

If your steel has more than 0.20% vanadium, then it will form primary vanadium carbides that greatly aid wear resistance. In the case of D2, where the carbon content is really high (1.5% is it?), then you'll want a touch more vanadium than 0.20%. Ideally, closer to 1% vanadium.
 
I appreciate your comments and work Stuart. If I'm understanding right, the range of trusted D2 recipes and heat treat will produce great knives. Unfortunately I cannot find the URL bookmark where I saw Cr12Mov with .05 vanadium, termed Chinese D2. Although I have seen two Chinese D2 manufactures that report producing, inside the range, D2 recipes where heat treat will make the difference in wear resistance. We, end users are left with knife owner experiences in leu of technical info.
I'm currently open in my mental horizons for the slicy-est D2 geometry I can find. And I recall Jason has equipment to thin geometry using water cooling without messing up the Rockwell (did I remember correctly Jason?).
The exasperated tone and verve of your comments "becoming a joke" and "getting ridiculous" remind me that I posted my question motivated by bogus "marketing specs" claiming really high Rockwell on a blade reported to be 0.095 thick, that seemed a mismatch, or a hole in my understanding.
 
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Standard D2 steel has 0.9-1.10 Vanadium which is used as grain refinement (among a few other things) because it has 11.5 -12% Chromium which becomes the main carbide former. I'm not sure where this 1.5% comes from but it's not in standard D2.

It's also 3-4% and NOT 4-5% so try not adding to the confusion when trying to make a point.

Further, I say 3-4% because until that point Vanadium is not noticed in the sharpening of the steel... AKA, the difference between needing or not needing diamond plate for sharpening.

"At that percentage it's used more for grain refinement" key word is more, because it's overwhelmed by the 11.5-12% of chromium which is the primary carbide former in the steel. Its when people get stuck on Vanadium as some magical element that at any precentage instantly makes the steel a Vanadium Carbide rich steel... But it doesn't.
 
Mostly great experiences using and sharpening d2, it's a favorite steel. I think of it simplistically as a value-priced steel that offers some of the same advantages/properties as much higher priced super steels. Have not done any systematic testing of different abrasives on D2, I just tend to use diamonds and get good results .

I have a Q on this type of statement: "If your steel has more than 0.20% vanadium, then it will form primary vanadium carbides that greatly aid wear resistance."

When folks are saying if a steel has more than X% vanadium (regardless of the %) it will improve wear resistance, how did you determine that? Is there an online source that you can point to, is it based on your own usage in knifemaking or sharpening (please elaborate), etc? Have no basis myself for debating it, but interested in what process folks went through to reach those conclusions.
 
My own take on the significance of a given amount of vanadium is, if it's enough to make an obvious and noticeable difference in sharpening it. If you can see the effect of it there, then you can be confident the steel's got enough of it to make a difference in other uses. For me, the first few times I tried to sharpen or refine S30V (4% vanadium) with something other than diamond hones, I started to intuitively KNOW something's very 'different' about that steel, as compared to the other simpler steels I'd had success with. It wasn't responding the same way on the strop (leather with green compound, at that time) as my 420HC or VG-10 or whatever. And I basically destroyed a couple of Lansky hones (aluminum oxide) in trying to reprofile an S30V blade, after using those same hones with easy success on my other steels. That was my 'epiphany moment' about S30V and why it's different.

On the other hand, a steel containing only 0.20% vanadium (as mentioned) wouldn't make much difference by itself, in wear resistance. Case's CV steel is basically 1095 with 0.22% vanadium and 0.65% chromium thrown in. In that tiny amount, the vanadium is there for grain refinement which, as I understand it, grows tiny amounts of vanadium carbides at the grain boundaries. Those vanadium-enhanced boundaries then help limit how large the steel's grain will grow during heat treatment, which is then why it's reputed to 'refine' the grain. But in that small amount, it'll never be noticed in sharpening for the sake of wear resistance, and still will be indistinguishable as compared to simple 1095 which has no vanadium or chromium at all. Both sharpen up in an easy breeze on Arkansas stones. I'm sure the simple presence of vanadium carbides will add some tiny smidgin of wear resistance, but against what type of wear? Not in sharpening, for certain; but maybe in limiting (slightly) the wear induced in simple, normal cutting tasks in relatively 'normal' materials being cut. But even then, it'd likely never be noticed at all without some rigidly-controlled & thorough scientific testing.
 
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D2 is my favorite steel and I have few Chinese knives that are labeled d2 but performance wise its something way under real d2 or its Chinese variant.Which chinese knives are made from real d2 or its Chinese variant I would like to know to try it out?!
 
maximus83 said:
Mostly great experiences using and sharpening d2, it's a favorite steel. I think of it simplistically as a value-priced steel that offers some of the same advantages/properties as much higher priced super steels. Have not done any systematic testing of different abrasives on D2, I just tend to use diamonds and get good results .

I have a Q on this type of statement: "If your steel has more than 0.20% vanadium, then it will form primary vanadium carbides that greatly aid wear resistance."

When folks are saying if a steel has more than X% vanadium (regardless of the %) it will improve wear resistance, how did you determine that? Is there an online source that you can point to, is it based on your own usage in knifemaking or sharpening (please elaborate), etc? Have no basis myself for debating it, but interested in what process folks went through to reach those conclusions.
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For a while I was sharpening a lot of high wear steels and taking them to a mirror polish. I was about the only person at the time using a full set of DMT diamond plates and diamond paste to do this. I noticed early on (because I have other stones too) that the diamonds were the only stones capable of sharpening and polishing these steels. Polishing is where you tend to sink or swim with high alloy steels because of the high interaction of abrasive and Carbides. The abrasive is no longer able to overwhelm the carbide with size so the carbide being harder and of equal or greater size starts polishing the abrasive because it is now the softer object.

I noticed this with S30V as it was pretty much the only "super steel" available at the production level at that time. It was at this time I started to educate myself on the alloy elements of the steel and quickly learned about Vanadium and the extreme hardness of the Carbides it created. So, with this new knowledge I started studying every steel I sharpened while also paying attention to how it sharpens. I got a feel for the difference between Vanadium and Chromium Carbides and how hardness ended up playing a huge role in the formation of said Carbides and the vast differences it could make in sharpening the same steel.

With dozens of steels under my belt I started the 4% rule with Vanadium as I felt it was the tipping point for carbide volume. I later found a YouTube channel called the Grinding Doc where in one of his videos makes specific mention to Vanadium content. Here is a good video on PM steels and though not mentioned, the chart at the end shows PM steel coming in right around 4%.
 
Jason B. said:
I'm not sure where this 1.5% comes from but it's not in standard D2.
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Jason and everyone else, Found the web page I was thinking of. It came from http://zknives.com/knives/steels/GB/cr12mo1v1.shtml
BUT I reported incorrectly, vanadium was not as low, nor as high. My apologies. Graph shows "Cr12Mo1V1(GB) - Equivalent of AISI of D2 tool steel. Except it's really low on Vanadium, 0.15%-0.30% instead of D2's ~1%."

Jason B. said:
"Further, I say 3-4% because until that point Vanadium is not noticed in the sharpening of the steel... AKA, the difference between needing or not needing diamond plate for sharpening."
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Obsessed with Edges said:
My own take on the significance of a given amount of vanadium is, if it's enough to make an obvious and noticeable difference in sharpening it. If you can see the effect of it there, then you can be confident the steel's got enough of it to make a difference in other uses.
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I have read a lot of folks saying you can tell "real" D2 by how it behaves during sharpening and use. I would like to read specific experiences from regular users of different known brands and models of D2 knives from everywhere geographically.
 
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lonestar1979 said:
D2 is my favorite steel and I have few Chinese knives that are labeled d2 but performance wise its something way under real d2 or its Chinese variant.Which chinese knives are made from real d2 or its Chinese variant I would like to know to try it out?!
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Brands models lonestar?
 
maximus83 said:
Mostly great experiences using and sharpening d2, it's a favorite steel. I think of it simplistically as a value-priced steel that offers some of the same advantages/properties as much higher priced super steels. Have not done any systematic testing of different abrasives on D2, I just tend to use diamonds and get good results .
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I have Benchmade D2 and love it, 710 and 275s, I just use KME and other diamond stones because I have that toolset, and save lesser stones for steels like AUS8, 8Cr13MoV, N680, etc. The sharpmaker kept our D2 sharp until the KME.
 
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scottc3 said:
Brands models lonestar?
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Both,brands and models,the ones i have are labeled d2 but its 8cr13mov. For sure,not even 440c(9cr18) which is actually solid steel with decent adge holding.Good 8cr13 is not bad too and have couple Enlan knives that perform well with this steel(the geometry is thin too so they cut well,high deep hollow grind)
 
A few recent faves in D2 include budget Ontario Rat folders (Rat 1 and Rat 2), and yes I have a Chinese-made D2, a Steel Will Roamer 6.3" fixed blade. Actually, all these examples are Chinese-made in the sense that the Rats are made in Taiwan. The Ontario Rat D2 seems like solid performing D2, the edges hold up well to rugged use, take a keen edge if you use diamond and a strop, and they are not chippy. The Roamer is new-ish, light camp knife role (I wanted something lighter than my ESEE Junglas that could still do a little chopping when backpacking), but I haven't had a chance to test it in the wild. It chopped through some pressure treated deck boards at home (yes--that took a while with a 6" knife :D) and didn't chip, roll, etc, so that's promising. Steel Will, including this knife, generally gets good reviews on their D2.

Also, a recent custom I had made by Charlie Mike, I nearly went with CPM D2, though I finally chose Elmax. I still think CPM D2 is a really interesting "D2 gen 2" type of steel, worth checking out as it sounds like the PM process in some ways enhances the steel's properties.
 
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