Daggers not sharpened?

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bobdole11

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Sep 22, 2017
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This is probably a dumb question, but should the edges of a dagger be extremely sharp? I've looked around a bit and found that some daggers are made and shipped (as the case has been in various wars) with rather blunt edges. The common response to concerns over this is "it's meant to stab, not cut." Of course a sharp dagger seems likely to puncture material much more easily than a blunt one, right? I've also come across this "issue" with things like swords during earlier wars. A cavalry sword would be much more blunt than an infantryman's sword because the riders would generally be galloping at some speed on a horse, and so the less sharpened sword would be adequate. I don't really understand it.
So are daggers and some swords used in the above context issued blunt with the manufacturer assuming they would be sharpened on the other end, or are they actually supposed to be duller for some reason? Seems weird to think soldier's would be expected to sharpen their own daggers and swords.
The only thing I can think is that if the weapon is a sword which is exclusively going to be used while riding at some speed it may be beneficial to the longevity of the weapon to have less than razor sharp edges to preempt damage to the blade. Likewise a dagger made solely to puncture clothing, flesh, and bone may be less prone to chips or damage if it is blunter.

Thanks
 
If anyone is trying to sell you a medieval explanation for a dull edge, they are trying to use renaissance faire logic on you to push inferior craftsmanship. Let me know the last time you engaged in horse-mounted combat with someone in day-to-day life.
 
Check out Churchill's Ministry of Ungentlemanly Warfare (maybe at your local library). There's an excellent section on William Fairbairn and Eric "Bill" Sykes, who taught commando silent killing tactics In WWII and developed the Sykes-Fairbairn dagger. Yes, it should be sharp, the better to sever arteries.
 
Alberta Ed said:
Check out Churchill's Ministry of Ungentlemanly Warfare (maybe at your local library). There's an excellent section on William Fairbairn and Eric "Bill" Sykes, who taught commando silent killing tactics In WWII and developed the Sykes-Fairbairn dagger. Yes, it should be sharp, the better to sever arteries.
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That reminds me of the time I read of some guy recounting a story of someone who served in WWII pushing a dagger through some guy's trachea horizontally from behind and then pushing straight out for a silent kill.

It's such a vivid image, and it's a third-party story to me.

(WTB Paragon Warlock Dagger Grind so I can open amazon packages like I'm ending nazi lives)
 
Here's the thing the problem of not having a razor sharp double edge spear point is
Not being able to slice or cut effectively.
The problem is more apparent in narrow width daggers
(such as the British f-s commando knife or the M3 trench knife on to the USGI M4 thru M7 bayonets)
Largely because makers place a less than ideal angled secondary bevel edge (double bevel)
grind-types-on-EDC-knives-600x380.png

https://ninjaready.com/knife-mainte...ade-grinds-survival-applications-infographic/
on each of the four edge surfaces.
2000px-Sword_cross_section.jpg

http://www.windlasssword.com/blogs/2015/10/30/cross-sections-of-a-sword/
Quite frankly, there isn't quite enough space for them to grind a steeper angle
Due to the central blade spine of the dagger.
On the other hand, I it was flat zero grind
(minus the secondary beveled edge) as in a mora knife Scandi grind.
The steeper sheer angle would definitely created a finer cutting edge.
http://www.balisongcollector.com/grinds.html
Double beveled edges works better on wider daggers (Like Boar hunting daggers).
If you can't afford expensive daggers,
Go for cheap broad types like cold steel's shanghai series of daggers
Some people would recommend a smatchet, but that's probably over kill :)
 
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GIRLYmann said:
Here's the thing the problem of not having a razor sharp double edge spear point is
Not being able to slice or cut effectively.
The problem is more apparent in narrow width daggers
(such as the British f-s commando knife or the M3 trench knife on to the USGI M4 thru M7 bayonets)
Largely because makers place a less than ideal angled secondary bevel edge (double bevel)
on each of the four edge surfaces.
Quite frankly, there isn't quite enough space for them to grind a steeper angle
Due to the central blade spine of the dagger.
On the other hand, I it was flat zero grind
(minus the secondary beveled edge) as in a mora knife Scandi grind.
The steeper sheer angle would definitely created a finer cutting edge.
http://www.balisongcollector.com/grinds.html
Double beveled edges works better on wider daggers (Like Boar hunting daggers).
If you can't afford expensive daggers,
Go for cheap broad types like cold steel's shanghai series of daggers
Some people would recommend a smatchet, but that's probably over kill :)
Click to expand...
This. The issue is one of geometry. Many daggers use relatively thick stock to ensure strength and rigidity, but have narrow blades to facilitate penetration. That combination ensures a short and abrupt primary grind which, in turn, makes it hard to apply an acute secondary bevel.
 
GIRLYmann said:
Here's the thing the problem of not having a razor sharp double edge spear point is
Not being able to slice or cut effectively.
The problem is more apparent in narrow width daggers
(such as the British f-s commando knife or the M3 trench knife on to the USGI M4 thru M7 bayonets)
Largely because makers place a less than ideal angled secondary bevel edge (double bevel)
on each of the four edge surfaces.
Quite frankly, there isn't quite enough space for them to grind a steeper angle
Due to the central blade spine of the dagger.
On the other hand, I it was flat zero grind
(minus the secondary beveled edge) as in a mora knife Scandi grind.
The steeper sheer angle would definitely created a finer cutting edge.
http://www.balisongcollector.com/grinds.html
Double beveled edges works better on wider daggers (Like Boar hunting daggers).
If you can't afford expensive daggers,
Go for cheap broad types like cold steel's shanghai series of daggers
Some people would recommend a smatchet, but that's probably over kill :)
Click to expand...

I worked with a guy who bought a shanghai shadow, and that thing shaved hair on either edge... There is no excuse. If you have a manufacturing facility that can't put a sharp edge on the same knife twice, then what you have is a bad manufacturing facility.
 
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^^Basically all of the above^^. It depends on the dagger, though. Most Fairbairn/Sykes daggers are both too thick in the center & not wide enough, not giving you the space to get a thin enough bevel to be sharp. You could, I suppose, but you'd have to remove a lot of metal. The Fox Bellum & Extrema Ratio Suppressor are like this too. These are designed to be stout, narrow stabbing tools & have dull, token edges with very thick bevels. It would be a frustrating waste of time to attempt putting thin bevels on these fancy shanks.

The other extreme would be something like the Cold Steel Tai Pan, with a wide blade & hollow ground edges. The Applegate/ Fairbairn, while not hollow ground, also has enough width to have thin bevels & take a good edge. These daggers will cut & are meant to be kept sharp.

Most daggers fall somewhere in between these examples & can be sharpened without too much trouble, but just don't have the overall geometry to cut well (say, a Gerber Mark 2). Daggers are mostly thrusting weapons & the design compromises cutting ability in favor of thrusting efficiency.
20170923_035728.jpg
 
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I can across a thread in the GB&U involving a guy who had bought a knife from TK Steingass that had complained his dagger was not sharp enough. Basically the guy complained he couldn't cut paper with it or shave arm hair. On the second page TK explained his theory on the edge of a dagger. I found it pretty interesting and it made alot of sense. Here is the link to the thread

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/tim-steingas.1491730/page-2

From what I understand is a sharp toothy edge is perfefered over say a mirror polished edge that will shave hair and push cut paper. If you go to TKs website he further explains his theory on sharpening and having toothy edge, which makes sense to me.
 
ourgon said:
Wound made with dull weapon was harder to heal and more painful. It's why Waffen-SS didn't sharpen their bayonets.
Click to expand...

Really? To my knowledge William Fairbairn found that clean cuts actually take longer to heal. I've never heard the thing about the S.S. not sharpening their bayonetts. Interesting. Gonna have to look into that.
 
William Fairbairn taught how to kill a man very quick.

They didn't cut with dull bayonet, it's mostly stab weapon, rifle with bayonet is too heavy for waving it around. Also when you stab with sharp weapon you can cut the bone, ribs for example, and make your weapon jammed in oponents body too long.

IMHO... Modern bayonets from XX and XXI c. are mostly wrong because it's connection of bayonet function with small sword/camp knife. In XIX soldiers were carrying triangular socket bayonet and small sword/short infantry sabre for hand to hand combat/camping, it was very often size of roman gladius. In late XIX they wanted, due to savings, make bayonet serving also as a short sword, later when cavalry didn't longer matter on battlefields they shortened it, also due to savings - more steel for more important things during great war. But triangular slim shape of Napoleonic era bayonets is still better to stab with. It's why some trench weapons were triangular, made especially for soldiers or self made in trenches.
a5dd203b17008269bb80c69bff4931c5--zombie-weapons-zombie-apocalypse.jpg
 
My Benchmade SOCP dagger is laughably obtuse. They might have well just not even put any edge on it. To be honest that's pretty much what they did. The double sided SOCP is only sharpened half way up the blade length. The half closer to the heel of the blade isn't even ground, it has black coating over it.
 
Sharper is better. The problem, as mentioned by a few others, is that a double-edged knife is essentially like two narrow knives back to back. The central spine is what provides rigidity, but there's a very short distance over which to taper to a fine edge so you basically either need a zero grind or a hollow grind to achieve that effectively.

Regarding cavalry swords, they should be sharp as well. Napoleonic practice was commonly to keep swords in their dull armory-supplied state until before battle, when the camp armorer would grind the edge on them. Many of the scabbards of the day were steel and would dull the edge somewhat as a matter of course. It was not really a very wise design choice, but such was the case with a lot of things back then.
 
Those metal scabbards are more robust. Probably better to keep mass produced sabers safe from being banged around. My scabbard is metal and has some kind of lining in it. Just read some ancient scabbards had fur lining that was probably oiled nicely.
 
Sergeua said:
Those metal scabbards are more robust. Probably better to keep mass produced sabers safe from being banged around. My scabbard is metal and has some kind of lining in it. Just read some ancient scabbards had fur lining that was probably oiled nicely.
Click to expand...

Just one quick excerpt from the 1857 publication "Report of the Secretary of War: Communicating the Report of Captain George B. McClellan, (First Regiment United States Cavalry,) One of the Officers Sent to the Seat of War in Europe, in 1855 and 1856"

In the field the sabres are first ground, and afterwards whetted every two or three weeks. I was informed that although the steel scabbard dulls the sabre it is regarded as being on the whole better than wood as not being so liable to injury by fire kicks &c.
Click to expand...

content
 
This guy says how there's a softer ring at the top of the scabbard so if the edge touches it, its less of an issue. He's got plenty of antuques he deals with. Just saying that the design consideration was more thought through than you give it credit.
 
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Not necessarily in all cases. It was noted commonly as a problem in period accounts. I'm quite familiar with Mr. Eastman's work. :)
 
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