Damascus by hand -- Initial Layer Count?

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Dec 15, 2009
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I have been itching to do another damascus billet ever since I dipped my first one in the etch and saw it develop before my eyes. I want to try twists, birdseyes etc.. the list goes on, but I have been bitten by the bug, despite swearing I would never do another by hand because it's such hard work lol.

So my first one I only had 1 bar each of 15n20 and 1080, and did 2 cuts each and had 6 layers. I lost a lot in cleanups and cuts and such, so I want to do a bigger billet this time, but I don't want to go overboard.

My forge can handle a bigger billet than I'm going to want to do by hand, but I'm wondering for those of you who make or made it by hand, how many layers did you start with? I'm thinking 6" pieces and perhaps 10 or 12 layers to start, so I can end up with a decent layer count and fair sized billet at the end.

It is a small forge lengthwise, only 12" deep, and I think an inch or so in from the front and back are going to be in the heat range I want, so I think I'll need to work the billet back and forge to get an even heat during the end of the drawing processes as it will probably get long on me, but I'm not sure on that.

Anyway, thanks for having a look and any advice you may have ! :P

PS: Pertaining to hand drawing, have you had cold shut problems with a twist pattern? I'm just imagining all those little ridges might want to roll over instead of flatten.
 
I usually use 2"X6 X1/4" bars. O-1 and 1084 work good.
Use seven bars, with 4 of O-1 and 3 of 1084.
Draw to 12", fold - draw - fold - draw, fold..............five folds = 224 layers, six folds =448.
 
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I did billets by hand for quite a few years and the largest easily managed billet I did was about 2 lbs maybe a bit over. My suggestion is a billet 1 inch wide 2 inches high and 4 inches long. My favorite mix used to be 1/4" 1095 and .060" 15n20 7 layers of 1095 and 6 of 15n20. you can go with 1/8 1080 and get almost double the layers.
Twist pattern by hand is no problem as long as when you are drawing you strike clean and paralell to the anvils surface.
Thanks,
Del
 
Op, not to derail the thread......

Stacy, why are you using O1 and 1075 instead of a 10xx and 15n20? I mean, why did you choose that combo? I want to understand more about the steels.
 
Actually, as I think back, the billet was 4" long, not six.

O-1/1084 in 1/4" is a simple and affordable starter mix. The combo will get a good contrast and work easily. It will weld up nicely.
15N20 and 1084 is a good damascus mix, for sure, but the cost will be higher, and the layers will be unequal.

Starting to learn forge welding with even thickness layers makes the process simpler.
The stack will be 2" wide, which is pretty easy to weld up. 1.75" tall, which is shorter than the width, so it will resist tipping sideways as you forge it down. And, 4" long, which can be done in two or three heats by hand.

Here is a basic technique I have used for a simple billet:
Cut two bars of O-1 2X4X1/4", and two bars 2X6X1/4". Cut one bar of 1084 2X24X1/4", and two bars 2X4X1/4"
Stack O-1(4") - 1084 (4") - O-1(6") - 1084(24") - O-1(6") - 1084(4") - O-1(4"). The longer bars will be the handle.

General Notes: Once stared, keep the billet above red heat. If it cols off before the first weld is set, the billet will never weld up right.
Every time you pull the billet out of the forge, brush off with a steel wire brush. Flying flux is not fun. It can burn you and start fires twenty feet away from the anvil. Wear full protective gear and keep the kids away when welding.
Each time you put the billet back in the forge, brush the scale off the anvil face, and place your hammer where you can pick it up easily and quickly. Work fast, but not in a hurried manner. Smooth and even forging is the trick.
OK, let's make damascus.

Grind off all mill scale and clean all bars well.
Clamp the billet in a vise, and weld all four corners ( see note on bottom). Then weld around all the handle seams
Put the billet in the forge and heat to red hot.
Remove and flux sides well, and continue heating.
As the bar reaches orange-yellow heat, brush off with a steel brush, and re-flux.
As the flux gets runny and looks like hot butter, brush again and re-flux. The billet should be approaching yellow heat by now. Try and hold at this temp for a few minutes to allow the center of the steel to get as hot as the outside. It all has to be at welding heat all the way through.
When the billet gets hot enough that a piece of coat hanger wire will stick to it when pushed against it in the forge - It is ready to set the weld. Note- If the billet starts sparking, it is too hot.
Pull it out, brush it off quickly, put back for a few moments, and then set the first weld. Go down the billet from the handle end toward the other end with firm BUT NOT HARD blows. Work the billet from the center toward the edges, and cover the whole billet. Flip over as you go, working from both sides. If it starts cooling off, re-flux and re-heat. Take as many heats as needed to get the whole billet solid.
You should feel the weld take with a soft "Thud". Brush off, re-flux, re-heat, brush off, re-weld again. Repeat a third time ( or as many as needed) , using heavier blows. The billet should now be feeling firmer, and acting a bit more like a solid block of steel. You will notice that the seams on the sides are staring to become all one red color, and loosing the dark line between them.
Brush off well, re-flux, and re-heat.
Pull the billet and brush off the sides well, re-heat for a moment, and weld down the sides. If any of the joints are not welded, they will show up easily. Work the billet into a solid rectangle of steel. If all is good, you are ready to draw the billet. If there is an open joint, re-flux, and re-weld until all is solid.
Once the billet is a solid block of steel, start drawing the billet with a cross peen and work from the end toward the handle. Stretch the billet until it is twice the length. The billet is drawn at temperatures from orange-yellow heat down to red. Re-heat whenever the billet gets to medium red. Once the billet is about 8-10" long you have a decision to make.

There are two methods of folding a billet by hand.
One is to cool the billet, grind the face clean, cut in half, weld the ends shut, and then repeat the welding and drawing process.
The other is to never let the billet get below red heat and do all work hot. I use this method, as taught me by Jim Batson. I call this "Hot Welding".

To do a Hot Weld, when the billet is drawn out long enough to fold, brush off well, and stick back in the forge. Drop a hot cut in the hardie, and pull the billet out. Brush off and then hot cut in the center nearly through. Brush off, re-heat a bit, flux, brush off and re-flux lightly, and fold over taping it snug, but not hammering on it. Bring up to welding heat, brush and flux again, re-heat, flux, weld, etc. On each weld up, make sure to work the sides,too. If the billet isn't solid , keep working it before drawing, or the seams will split later. When drawing the billet, work evenly and in 3-4" sections per heat.
Every time the billet gets long enough, just repeat the folding process. Make the folds up or down, so the billet stays balanced on the handle. In about an hour or so, you should have made five or six folds. Once the final layer count is reached, draw the billet out to about 1/2" thick. take a break, and let it cool off.
Cut the handle piece off, Grind all surfaces clean and inspect for bad welds. If there is a problem, try and fix it by re-welding that area. If it won't re-weld, try grinding it out. You will be wasting time to try and forge a knife out of a billet with a bad weld in it.
At this point the billet should look like a bar of steel, and show little or no layers. Etch it in FC for a minute to see how the layers look on the side. Rinse and neutralize well. If everything is good, forge the bar out to whatever size you want - 1/4" to 3/16" by 1.5" is the norm. You should have enough for two knives.


Footnote:
A good technique, once you have done a billet or two, is to weld all seams of the billet shut. This is called dry welding. There are several threads about the technique. The use of kerosene in doing this eliminates flying flux almost completely. Learn how to weld first, then explore this .
 
Thanks Stacy, that seems like a good size. I will substitute 1080/1084 and 15n20 for now, because it seems easy to work with. Do you like folding vs cutting and stacking? I suppose if you only cut part way through and fold, you really only have to clean one side of it with the grinder instead of both, and you'd waste less metal that way.
 
Holy cow Stacy! I now want to make some damascus! My wife is going to kill me. :). I just picked up an empty R-134a bottle, so I have my forge body. If I can get it all together, I'm going to start slowly collecting all the parts needed for a small propane forge.

One (ok a bunch, but I will wait on them) question though, what if a guy doesn't have a welder? How would I get the layers to stay together for that first weld?
 
I have in a pinch done a small stack holding 5 pieces in tongs (5/10/20/40/80/160) I have also used stainless steel TIG rod as binding wire, I have forge welded the bottom plate to a handle rod, balanced the stack on that in the forge and carefully brought that to the anvil to set it (don't do this way, the flux is super slippery and the stack wants to find your feet, your 'nads etc.) once you have done a few it gets easy to improvise, your first billet will be your hardest, after that you start to get a feel for it

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Thanks for that detailed explanation Stacy! My first billet didnt turn out bad, but I had a few inclusions I was just lucky I was able to grind out. You describe fluxing and rewelding many more times than I did my first time, so I will definitely take your advice next time. I'm a bit confused in 2 places where you say work in on the side.. do you mean flip the billet on its side (perpendicular to the anvil face) and hammer down on the cross section? I did this a little just straightening mine out to keep it relatively square, and I had the layers split a little on the edges. I refluxed and rewelded those spots, but I probably could have avoided it if I did more than one welding in the first place.
 
Page, I'm assuming the stainless won't weld to the billet stack? I saw a WIP here recently on cable damascus that the smith used a stainless tube to hold the cable in place while he welded it. Then he cut/peeled the tube away. I guess that's what I'm basing my assumption on, but you know what happens when you assume.
 
The reason to fold is because I am working the billet hot, you don't have to grind anything ( unless you stop and let it cool off). Also, this is a starter project. Once you know how to weld damascus, all sorts of methods open up.....but first you have to master getting the layers to weld together solid.

If you were to stop, cool, grind, and re-stack, you should do three to five pieces in the stack to increase the layer count faster.

In the hot working method, you do one continual forging and folding project from beginning to end. It is much faster that you think to get to almost 500 layers.

While talking budget - Jim Batson used to use O-1 and plain old A36 (Ordinary steel from Home Depot) to make damascus at demos. It made a perfectly good knife.
 
Page, I'm assuming the stainless won't weld to the billet stack? I saw a WIP here recently on cable damascus that the smith used a stainless tube to hold the cable in place while he welded it. Then he cut/peeled the tube away. I guess that's what I'm basing my assumption on, but you know what happens when you assume.

Stainless does not weld in the presence of air. I do 5-10 cable billets a year (quick easy damascus) and have no idea why anyone would use a stainless tube for that, I should do a WIP on how I do it (I would need to clean up my shop, talk about embarrassing!)


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With the hot folding method I was thinking "what about scale forming when you pull it out and it hits oxygen?" but as I thought about it some more I remembered you flux it before which will prevent that. I will try your method next time, and see if I prefer it to the cutting method. It seems like a lot less work!
 
Stacy when drawing it out my hand as the length increases the width also increases. So you'll have to turn it up on the edge and hammer the width back to where? to initial width of your stack? or is a little width increase not going to hurt? Also what does hammering the width back down do to the pattern?
 
When I am folding a stack I hammer up the edges as square as possible, hot chisel cut almost all of the way through the stack in the middle, wire brush and reflux the fold surface (If I am near a grinder I will grind it clean and re-flux, otherwise clean the best I can, flux with a mixture of boric acid and borax (boric acid has higher activity but no high temp stability, borax is good at welding temps) fold but not weld, re-flux, bring up to welding heat set the weld with one gentle hit in the center, re-flux, reheat give a couple of gentle settiing hits in a small circle in the center, reheat, and gently set the whole weld starting in the middle and working outward gently, reheat, go over the weld more forcefully, reheat and soak at welding temp, go over the whole weld again with firm forceful blows but not forging blows, reheat and soak, then start forging. My chosen hammer for this is a 4 pound antique smith's hammer. It has enough mass to carry a gentle tap deep into a stack for complete weld penetration without deformation or upsetting the top layer in relation to the other layers

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O1 mixed with 1075?; hmmmm. Just for argument's sake; why would you take an oil hardening steel and mix it with a water hardening steel? And, with neither of these steels containing nickel, for the shiney layers, what kind of appealing contrast do you get? Seems to me, they are at totally different ends of the heat treat, and that some kind of heat treat compromise must be reached. If you heat treat in the slow oil for the O1, the 1075 won't get fully hardened. And, if you heat treat the mix for the 1075 and quench into the super fast oil required to fully harden the 1075, you risk microcracking the O1. ???
 
Danbo,
Just for the sake of argument-
Once forge welded together and drawn out , the steel isn't O-1 and 1084 anymore. The carbon will migrate and both steels will change. If hardened as for 1084, the O-1 will be fine.
The common misconception is that it is like hardening a bar of each side by side.
 
the common modern damascus mixes I have seen chosen for HT compatibility, thermal dimensional change compaibility and carbon migration neutrality are O-1 with L-6, and 1084 with 15N20. Both of these combinations use nickel for contrast, there are many other mixes, I like 1095 with nickel sheet for dramatic looks, but do most of my damascus as 1084/15n20 the classic Bill Moran mix was (if I remember correctly) a high carbon steel with mild steel relying on carbon differential for contrast. There are many other combinations. During the folding, welding, and drawing carbon (interstitial element) will move from areas of high concentration to areas of lower concentration, but substitutional elements (chromium, nickel, etc.) will generally stay put

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Danbo,
Just for the sake of argument-
Once forge welded together and drawn out , the steel isn't O-1 and 1084 anymore. The carbon will migrate and both steels will change. If hardened as for 1084, the O-1 will be fine.
The common misconception is that it is like hardening a bar of each side by side.

Ok, I can see that. But, what about the contrast? Wouldn't a little bit of nickel saw steel(L6 or 15N20, 8670M) be better than the black/gray I imagine one would get with the stricktly O1/1075? I mean, since we're arguing and whatnot. ;)
 
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