I see that my state's law (Iowa) prohibits me from carrying a "dagger" but fails to define what that is. I've done some research but nothing I've seen firmly defines "this is a dagger and nothing else." Is it a double edged knife? I really have no idea. Any light that can be shed would be appreciated.
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Define Dagger
- Thread starter ethies
- Start date
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2005
- Messages
- 411
In my state a dagger is a knife that is double edged. They are against the law in my state as is butterfly knives and switchblades. Yet you can carry a machete?
- Joined
- Dec 8, 2004
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Usually means a double-edged knife, but the absence of a clear definition allows for considerable interpretation:
Imagine a thug standing on the street, clearly up to no good, and even hassling passersby. A police officer strolls up, questions him, and asks to pat him down. During the search, the officer finds a single-blade tactical black-bladed evil looking folder. Legal length? Maybe--but if we call it a dagger, he can at least confiscate it or otherwise get him off the street.
Imagine a thug standing on the street, clearly up to no good, and even hassling passersby. A police officer strolls up, questions him, and asks to pat him down. During the search, the officer finds a single-blade tactical black-bladed evil looking folder. Legal length? Maybe--but if we call it a dagger, he can at least confiscate it or otherwise get him off the street.
Is that the definition for all states? It seems that the no daggers provision is in pretty widespread application across many states, do they all have the same definition? Iowa only considers it a "dangerous weapon" (e.g. must have permit to carry) if the knife in question is a dagger or is five inches or more in length. I would think a 4.5" single edged knife would be at least as deadly as a 3.5" double edged knife. Is the difference just people's perception of daggers as deadly?
yes indeed, but dictionary definitions vary widely:
1.A short pointed weapon with sharp edges.
2.Something that agonizes, torments, or wounds.
3.Printing.
See obelisk.
A double dagger
--American Heritige 4th ed.
1 : a sharp pointed knife for stabbing
2 a : something that resembles a dagger b : a character died used as a reference mark or to indicate a death date
--Merriam-Webster
a short, pointed knife that is sharp on both sides, used esp. in the past as a weapon
--Cambridge Dictionary of American English
noun 1 a short pointed knife, used as a weapon. 2 Printing an obelus.
--Oxford English Dictionary
It seems that almost any knife could fall into one, more, or all of these definitions. Since the law didn't elaborate as to the definition of a dagger, one would be left to assume that the definition must be common knowledge and therefore the dictionary would hold the answer. By these defintions, my pairing knife is probably a dagger and therefore a "dangerous weapon" on par with a .500 S&W handgun.
1.A short pointed weapon with sharp edges.
2.Something that agonizes, torments, or wounds.
3.Printing.
See obelisk.
A double dagger
--American Heritige 4th ed.
1 : a sharp pointed knife for stabbing
2 a : something that resembles a dagger b : a character died used as a reference mark or to indicate a death date
--Merriam-Webster
a short, pointed knife that is sharp on both sides, used esp. in the past as a weapon
--Cambridge Dictionary of American English
noun 1 a short pointed knife, used as a weapon. 2 Printing an obelus.
--Oxford English Dictionary
It seems that almost any knife could fall into one, more, or all of these definitions. Since the law didn't elaborate as to the definition of a dagger, one would be left to assume that the definition must be common knowledge and therefore the dictionary would hold the answer. By these defintions, my pairing knife is probably a dagger and therefore a "dangerous weapon" on par with a .500 S&W handgun.
Well according to california law, "a 'dirk' or 'dagger' means a knife or other instrument with or without a handguard that is capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury or death." That's quoted from California Penal code. I find it interesting that it includes nearly any knife with a point, as well as (if you want to get technical) pens, pencils, keys, and anything else that can be used to stab someone.
With laws like this how is anyone supposed to be able to carry any kind of knife without fear of prosecution. I'd really like to avoid breaking the law, if at all possible. Is it that states want to ban carrying knives altogether but can't get enough support, so they hide behind vague laws which could theoretically allow them to arrest anyone they want for carrying a toothpick?
- Joined
- Dec 12, 2005
- Messages
- 11
You might want to go with something like a leatherman that has a nice knife blade. If the laws are too vague, then you might as well carry something that could hardly be construed as a weapon in any shape and or form.
I've known people that have got in trouble for carrying legal size sheath knives around where I live... but I got in trouble, cop asked to see my leartherman, i got it out, showed him the knife blade, he let me off the slate clean. Play it safe, it all depends on the cop. Also, if you "do" get a knife... don't get anything: serrated, curved, double-bladed, has a knuckle attachment, hook blade, spikes, switch/mehanically propelled blade (shoots blade out at someone) butterfly, or resembles a combat knife (no european combat knives, or anything that says combat) no gut hook skinners, also! keep it on your hip, in a sheath (i know i said you can get in trouble for a sheath, but you're far less likely to as compared to keeping it in your pocket), don't get a boot knife, you're so screwed if you get caught with one of those on. Sry for the verbose descript, just tryin to help
I've known people that have got in trouble for carrying legal size sheath knives around where I live... but I got in trouble, cop asked to see my leartherman, i got it out, showed him the knife blade, he let me off the slate clean. Play it safe, it all depends on the cop. Also, if you "do" get a knife... don't get anything: serrated, curved, double-bladed, has a knuckle attachment, hook blade, spikes, switch/mehanically propelled blade (shoots blade out at someone) butterfly, or resembles a combat knife (no european combat knives, or anything that says combat) no gut hook skinners, also! keep it on your hip, in a sheath (i know i said you can get in trouble for a sheath, but you're far less likely to as compared to keeping it in your pocket), don't get a boot knife, you're so screwed if you get caught with one of those on. Sry for the verbose descript, just tryin to help
Really my pursuit of a knife is related to an experience I had last fall while backpacking where I was tailed by a guy for quite a while and in some lets say conscerning ways. I backpack in some rather remote areas (more than 12hours of quick hiking without a pack to find a road) and would rather not risk becoming a victim of some crazy dude. In thinking about that I wanted to select a knife that would be an effective fighting knife that would be reasonably concealable (boot knife maybe?). Then I considered that I could carry the knife all the time as long as it was legal. At that point I believed that Iowa law was "anything under 5 and no switchblades." In looking at blades I really liked the Gerber Guardian as a simple, compact, no-frills SD weapon. Upon further review of IA laws the "no daggers" provision became evident, and not knowing what the definition of a dagger is I inquired here after not being satisfied by dictionary definitons. From what I've read here the LEO that you encounter gets to decide what your weapon/tool is based on if they think you're up to something or not.
- Joined
- Dec 8, 2004
- Messages
- 4,812
Ethies,
It's important to note that dictionary definitions have limited legal value--all that matter is how (or if) that terms is defined in the statutes you've got in front of you. Often, helpfully, the statutes define words in the front--often, though, with weapons they do not.*
You would probably be better served asking an Iowa-based law enforcement officer (there may be some on this site!), and asking them if the Guardian is acceptable to pack in a backpack on a hiking trip.
There's a huge gulf between wearing one to the mall on Saturday (weapon)and hiking with one in a back pack (survival tool).
*Lawmakers are really bad about timely laws. This takes one of two forms: it either takes ten years for them to pass a law to outlaw a specific weapon--and by that time, they're rarely seen--or they hurry up and pass a trendy law so badly worded that it outlaws all sorts of useful tools and implements. An easy way to avoid this is to leave some items vaguely worded, so that the laws don't need to be changed every time a clever manufacturer finds a creative way to sell a "dangerous" weapon legally.
It's important to note that dictionary definitions have limited legal value--all that matter is how (or if) that terms is defined in the statutes you've got in front of you. Often, helpfully, the statutes define words in the front--often, though, with weapons they do not.*
You would probably be better served asking an Iowa-based law enforcement officer (there may be some on this site!), and asking them if the Guardian is acceptable to pack in a backpack on a hiking trip.
There's a huge gulf between wearing one to the mall on Saturday (weapon)and hiking with one in a back pack (survival tool).
*Lawmakers are really bad about timely laws. This takes one of two forms: it either takes ten years for them to pass a law to outlaw a specific weapon--and by that time, they're rarely seen--or they hurry up and pass a trendy law so badly worded that it outlaws all sorts of useful tools and implements. An easy way to avoid this is to leave some items vaguely worded, so that the laws don't need to be changed every time a clever manufacturer finds a creative way to sell a "dangerous" weapon legally.
Certainly I can apreciate the difference between in my pack while backpacking and in my boot while at the mall. But what about somwhere inbetween? What about in my boot while backpacking? What about on my belt while walking down the sidewalk? You've kind of listed the white and black, but there is a great deal of grey. I will ask a LEO, but it has been my experience that LEOs rarely agree on these kind of questions. I wish the law would be more clear.
I would like to get a knife for defense, general carry. What would you guys recommend? I'm not going to spend more than $100 if I can help it. I'm not a knife knut as many of you guys are so the asthetics of the knife are lost on me. I'm open to any suggestions. Folder / fixed / other? I'd just like it to be unlikely to cause any problems should a LEO find me carrying it. Many thanks.
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2002
- Messages
- 1,862
Hi ethies, fellow Iowan here.
Our state law can be a real pain in the butt when it comes to what you can carry/not carry. For example, I'd love to own any number of Busse models, however most of the models I like start at +7" blades.
For a SD weapon, a knife is basically a last resort weapon. In your example of being chased, a cell phone call to 911 would have been the better solution. A knife is not an answer to someone armed with a gun. Also, if you stab someone, even in self-defense, be prepared to face prosecution.
If you MUST carry for SD, your best bet is to stay within the jurisdiction of the state and local law (>5", no daggers). That being said, a folder is significantly easier to conceal; and posting your question about what knife to buy in General Knife Discussion>Blade Discussion Forum will yield you a better response as to what other knife users recommend you carry. Remember - most crimes involving knives involve simple kitchen cutlery; so when it comes down to a real SD situation any bladed weapon will do.
I personally think the Columbia River Knife and Tool (CRKT) M21 makes a fine SD carry knife. The M16 model they make is a bit more tactical (they even make "military" and "law enforcement" model M16s) but would also work. If you live near Des Moines, or Iowa City; check out Scheels selection of CRKTs.
Our state law can be a real pain in the butt when it comes to what you can carry/not carry. For example, I'd love to own any number of Busse models, however most of the models I like start at +7" blades.
For a SD weapon, a knife is basically a last resort weapon. In your example of being chased, a cell phone call to 911 would have been the better solution. A knife is not an answer to someone armed with a gun. Also, if you stab someone, even in self-defense, be prepared to face prosecution.
If you MUST carry for SD, your best bet is to stay within the jurisdiction of the state and local law (>5", no daggers). That being said, a folder is significantly easier to conceal; and posting your question about what knife to buy in General Knife Discussion>Blade Discussion Forum will yield you a better response as to what other knife users recommend you carry. Remember - most crimes involving knives involve simple kitchen cutlery; so when it comes down to a real SD situation any bladed weapon will do.
I personally think the Columbia River Knife and Tool (CRKT) M21 makes a fine SD carry knife. The M16 model they make is a bit more tactical (they even make "military" and "law enforcement" model M16s) but would also work. If you live near Des Moines, or Iowa City; check out Scheels selection of CRKTs.
great to hear from a fellow Iowan! I don't get down Fairfield way very often, I live in Boone. Thanks for the advice I've looked at Scheels and Sportsman's Warehouse in Ankeny a fair bit, but I've found the customer service at both sorely lacking. Not that they don't have inteligent people working there, but I always seem to get the pimply faced high school junior whose knowledge is limited to "knifes? um... they're sharp?" Thanks again, and I will move this thread.
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2005
- Messages
- 19,385
I just remembered this thread concerned "daggers". I would't bother with a double edged blade. They aren't the best for general cutting chores around a camp site. In my state (TN), the blade length is important only when there is INTENT to go armed. There is a switchblade restriction though in addition to the blade length. I have never heard of anyone getting arrested for carrying a knife camping, hiking, or hunting. Usually the intent is not to go armed which is why I include the TN reference below.
39-17-1307. Unlawful carrying or possession of a weapon.
(a) (1) A person commits an offense who carries with the intent to go armed a firearm, a knife with a blade length exceeding four inches (4"), or a club.
It is this distinction that Rambo in First Blood (movie) responded to why he had a knife with him--"hunting".
Spyderco Native available at Walmart should fit your needs for self defense with convenient pocket carry. It also would be useful as a general camp knife. Frankly while hiking and camping I would look to a larger knife and carry it in a belt sheath. The one that comes to mind that I have is the SOG Northwest Ranger which has a 5" blade. It is durable, sharp, nicely balanced, and does not cost an arm and a leg. It is a knife you will not be afraid to use for whatever day to day purpose hiking from food preparation to cutting limbs or small trees.
The SOG Field Pup is also a nice general purpose blade at 4" with belt sheath. Inexpensive and will do most of what you need. You might even use it around the kitchen.
Now. If I was truly worried about self defense (and was old enough) while hiking, I would carry a handgun period. You can choose the carry location relative to your perception of need. Even a 22LR is much easier to use effectively than a knife for defensive purposes.
Addition to Post>Iowa law
Iowa - Crime Control and Criminal Acts - Definitions. 702.7.
Dangerous weapon. A "dangerous weapon" is any instrument
or device designed primarily for use in inflicting death
or injury upon a human being or animal... Dangerous
weapons include, but are not limited to, any offensive
weapon... firearm, dagger, razor, stiletto, switchblade
knife, or knife having a blade exceeding five inches in
length.
- 724.4. Carrying weapons.
1. Except as provided in this section, a person who goes
armed with a dangerous weapon concealed on or about the
person... commits an aggravated misdemeanor.
2. A person who goes armed with a knife concealed on or about
the person, if the person uses the knife in the commission
of a crime, commits an aggravated misdemeanor.
3. A person who goes armed with a knife concealed on or about
the person, if the person does not use the knife in the
commission of a crime:
a. If the knife has a blade exceeding eight inches in length,
commits an aggravated misdemeanor.
b. If the knife has a blade exceeding five inches in length
but not exceeding eight inches in length, commits a
serious misdemeanor.
4. Subsections 1 through 3 do not apply to any of the
following:
a. A person who goes armed with a dangerous weapon in the
person's own dwelling or place of business...
b-d. [officials]
h. A person who carries a knife used in hunting or fishing,
while actually engaged in lawful hunting or fishing.
i. [valid permit]
- 724.1. Offensive Weapons... 5. A ballistic knife. A
ballistic knife is a knife with a detachable blade which
is propelled by a spring-operated mechanism, elastic
material, or compressed gas... Section 724.3. Any
person... who knowingly possesses an offensive weapon
commits a class "D" felony... (Also see Section 724.4.
carrying weapons.)
Iowa Case Law:
- "Intent was essential element in determining whether
defendant who was found in possession of ten-inch kitchen
knife was guilty of crime of carrying a concealed weapon."
(1974)
- "Defendant, who was found carrying two pocketknives, one in
pocket and one on chain around his neck under his shirt,
could not be convicted of carrying concealed dangerous
weapons without proof of intent to use knives as weapons."
(1966)
- "Intended illegal use of knife cannot be inferred from
defendant's bad reputation or former convictions for
assault." (1966)
- "Actual intent of user is not the issue in deciding whether
instrument or device is dangerous..." (1984)
http://www.knife-expert.com
39-17-1307. Unlawful carrying or possession of a weapon.
(a) (1) A person commits an offense who carries with the intent to go armed a firearm, a knife with a blade length exceeding four inches (4"), or a club.
It is this distinction that Rambo in First Blood (movie) responded to why he had a knife with him--"hunting".
Spyderco Native available at Walmart should fit your needs for self defense with convenient pocket carry. It also would be useful as a general camp knife. Frankly while hiking and camping I would look to a larger knife and carry it in a belt sheath. The one that comes to mind that I have is the SOG Northwest Ranger which has a 5" blade. It is durable, sharp, nicely balanced, and does not cost an arm and a leg. It is a knife you will not be afraid to use for whatever day to day purpose hiking from food preparation to cutting limbs or small trees.
The SOG Field Pup is also a nice general purpose blade at 4" with belt sheath. Inexpensive and will do most of what you need. You might even use it around the kitchen.
Now. If I was truly worried about self defense (and was old enough) while hiking, I would carry a handgun period. You can choose the carry location relative to your perception of need. Even a 22LR is much easier to use effectively than a knife for defensive purposes.
Addition to Post>Iowa law
Iowa - Crime Control and Criminal Acts - Definitions. 702.7.
Dangerous weapon. A "dangerous weapon" is any instrument
or device designed primarily for use in inflicting death
or injury upon a human being or animal... Dangerous
weapons include, but are not limited to, any offensive
weapon... firearm, dagger, razor, stiletto, switchblade
knife, or knife having a blade exceeding five inches in
length.
- 724.4. Carrying weapons.
1. Except as provided in this section, a person who goes
armed with a dangerous weapon concealed on or about the
person... commits an aggravated misdemeanor.
2. A person who goes armed with a knife concealed on or about
the person, if the person uses the knife in the commission
of a crime, commits an aggravated misdemeanor.
3. A person who goes armed with a knife concealed on or about
the person, if the person does not use the knife in the
commission of a crime:
a. If the knife has a blade exceeding eight inches in length,
commits an aggravated misdemeanor.
b. If the knife has a blade exceeding five inches in length
but not exceeding eight inches in length, commits a
serious misdemeanor.
4. Subsections 1 through 3 do not apply to any of the
following:
a. A person who goes armed with a dangerous weapon in the
person's own dwelling or place of business...
b-d. [officials]
h. A person who carries a knife used in hunting or fishing,
while actually engaged in lawful hunting or fishing.
i. [valid permit]
- 724.1. Offensive Weapons... 5. A ballistic knife. A
ballistic knife is a knife with a detachable blade which
is propelled by a spring-operated mechanism, elastic
material, or compressed gas... Section 724.3. Any
person... who knowingly possesses an offensive weapon
commits a class "D" felony... (Also see Section 724.4.
carrying weapons.)
Iowa Case Law:
- "Intent was essential element in determining whether
defendant who was found in possession of ten-inch kitchen
knife was guilty of crime of carrying a concealed weapon."
(1974)
- "Defendant, who was found carrying two pocketknives, one in
pocket and one on chain around his neck under his shirt,
could not be convicted of carrying concealed dangerous
weapons without proof of intent to use knives as weapons."
(1966)
- "Intended illegal use of knife cannot be inferred from
defendant's bad reputation or former convictions for
assault." (1966)
- "Actual intent of user is not the issue in deciding whether
instrument or device is dangerous..." (1984)
http://www.knife-expert.com
Yeah, the real intrest in the double edge is for sd purposes rather than the utility side. I'd like a knife that I can legally carry almost anywhere yet would be good for self defence and would still be at home in minor camp utility tasks. I have a little Browning Buckmark .22 pistol that I carry on my hip when backpacking sometimes, but there are many backpacking destinations where carrying a firearm is prohibited. Hence my search for a kinfe. Also, that damn pistol when loaded weighs almost twice what ALL of my utensils, pots, bowls, stove, and fuel for a week for two people. Also, I can't figure out a way to attach it to me instead of to my pack. That would kinda suck if I had to drop my pack in a hurry. A knife could easily be in my pocket so that even if I dropped the pack it would still be with me. The law seems to say if the knife was designed for killing, or is longer than 5" its a dangerous weapon. Its illegal to carry a dangerous weapon or conceal any kind of knife (pen blades included) if you use the knife in the commission of a crime. The guys in the general blade forum have convinced me to look at some folders for the sake of concealment, although both of those SOG fixed blades looked nice to me.
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2006
- Messages
- 17
In Texas, the penal code mentions a few specific knives (dirk,dagger, stilletto, poinard, Bowie, sword, etc.) These definitions can be surprisingly vague. A while back I had an Urban Pal attached to my belt and a policeman pointed out that it was a stiletto. The purpose of being vague is to allow as much discretion as possible to the LEO. If the LEO can convince the DA then you have a case. Much would seem to depend on what circumstances the offending knife happens to be in your possession. LEO's are very used to making gun cases. Get caught with a pistol and no concealed carry permit; you ride. Knife cases are not made as often, unless of course they are seeking a reason to take you into custody.
It would seem to be a better rule of thumb to consider how much attention you attract to yourself. If you draw the attention of law enforcement frequently then care should be exercised.
To the thug, legal consideration is simply not factored in.
This needs to be considered in SD situations and then follow your conscience.
It would seem to be a better rule of thumb to consider how much attention you attract to yourself. If you draw the attention of law enforcement frequently then care should be exercised.
To the thug, legal consideration is simply not factored in.
This needs to be considered in SD situations and then follow your conscience.