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Design input needed on a 4.5" fixed blade

Discussion in 'General Knife Discussion' started by razor-edge-knives, Jul 13, 2019.

  1. gazz98

    gazz98 Gold Member Gold Member

    Sep 3, 2008
    • no swedge. I like a 90 degree spine.
    • bump the edge back and only make a small sharpening choil. I'm usually not a fan of finger choils on fixed blades.
    • I like thumb ramps. Leave it where it is. I like the longer ramp + smaller jimping in post 8 vs the original.
    • no bow drill recess. I don't do bow drills myself.
    • Size ok? Yes.
    • any other thoughts?
    This. I'd like a more drop/spear point shaped blade and a rounder butt.

    Looks good Josh! Like you said, you can't please everyone ...
     
    David Mary and razor-edge-knives like this.
  2. Boru13

    Boru13 Super Moderator Staff Member Super Mod Moderator

    953
    Apr 25, 2000
    I'll be the odd man out, I still prefer your original 3D rendition with the swedge and choil... if your doing a 1 of, I'll take it :)

    Really looking forward to the final design, unless something drastically changes I'm in for one or two... not crazy about the thumb ramp being moved that far forward though, I don't find myself having to choke up on a knife that much for it to be an issue.

    I would drop the bow drill and ferro notch, always seemed gimmicky to me.

    Love the steel choice and 1/16" jimping :thumbsup:
     
    razor-edge-knives and JJ_Colt45 like this.
  3. razor-edge-knives

    razor-edge-knives Moderator Moderator Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Apr 3, 2011
    Thanks for all the input guys! I'll try to respond more to these individually tomorrow or Monday morning. Turns out the guy already 3D printed the original edition so I'll be getting that in Tuesday to check out how it feels.
     
    Boru13, JJ_Colt45 and bikerector like this.
  4. Cosmodragoon

    Cosmodragoon

    320
    Jan 1, 2019
    I prefer a more neutral transition from handle to spine. Thumb placement can vary a lot for different hands. Maybe extend the thumb ramp out a little and/or decrease the height a little. I'd agree on ditching the swedge. I don't always like a finger choil but it makes sense with that big thumb ramp and it balances the knife aesthetically. If anything, the finger choil could be a tad bigger.
     
    razor-edge-knives likes this.
  5. Pomsbz

    Pomsbz

    Jul 31, 2015
    The handle edges seem sharp to me, both the middle bit and the butt end.
     
  6. rxavage

    rxavage

    817
    Aug 16, 2014
    Agree on all points
     
  7. razor-edge-knives

    razor-edge-knives Moderator Moderator Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Apr 3, 2011
    dude thank you for chiming in, I know you have a lot of experience w/ fixed blades. You raise an excellent point about the handle angle, I had almost forgot I wanted to do that very thing (angle downwards slightly) so thanks for that along w/ the other input.

    _____________________________________________________________________
    Ok so went back over everything... Should be getting the printed knife tomorrow

    Already made these changes though, lmk what you guys think. I did away w/ the ferro rod notch (it can always be added simply enough) and the bow rod notch, changing that into 3 divots for subtle grip enhancement (I really think this will create an excellent grip w/ out making hotspots). Lmk what you guys think...

    Changes:
    • I angled the handle downwards slightly
    • changed some of the curves up subtly along w/ the palm swell location (barely moved forward)
    • extended the thumb ramp a little bit and switched jimping to 1/16" and chamferred
    • switched screw recesses up to work w/ flat head torx screws, matching the 'theme' of the handle better imho
    • rounded the the corners on the pommel area a bit and chamferred the lanyard hole
    * keep in mind the areas that look like 'hard corners' on the handle will be softened w/ sandpaper so they won't be sharp at all

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  8. bikerector

    bikerector Gold Member Gold Member

    Nov 16, 2016
    That looks like a very useful, and beautiful, knife.

    Is the groove down the center of the handle big enough to use as a thumb scallop? I can't tell if it's designed with that in mind or if it's just a consequence of milling out that center.
     
  9. razor-edge-knives

    razor-edge-knives Moderator Moderator Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Apr 3, 2011
    It's not designed for that specifically, more so to prevent twisting in hand and give a really nice grip and recess for the fingers to go into. But yes, it would certainly give your thumb a nice resting spot and serve as a reference for that type of work...

    [​IMG]
     
  10. JJ_Colt45

    JJ_Colt45 Gold Member Gold Member

    Sep 11, 2014
    I think with the subtle changes you made with the handle it looks like it would be more comfortable and it could cover a lot of different tasks ... I think the jimping is good ... actually gives you extra grip instead of being more decorative or an after thought ...

    I like the handle and thump ramp on these images much more ... you could apply more pressure and/or use it longer without hand fatigue ...

    the handle looks comfortable with slight angle change and softening the curve of the heel ... and the 3 divots you put in wouldn't be felt at all the way the rest of the scales are shaped ... and still gives someone the option of using it as a point for a bow drill if they needed/wanted to go that way ... or as a pinch grip ... and the palm swell is nice gives it better orientation in hand ...

    with the belly and the height of the blade ... it looks like it could be a nice hunting knife ... and the spearpoint type tip would be useful on several bushcraft type things ...

    Looks good Josh ... I'll be interested to see what others think ... but I like it :thumbsup:

    When you finalize the design please post the specs on it with the changes ... it's good to see you getting to do this !
     
    razor-edge-knives likes this.
  11. ridnovir

    ridnovir Gold Member Gold Member

    Mar 12, 2012
    I like it. I would remove the swage portion off the blade completely and go for a more streamlined traditional look ;)
     
    razor-edge-knives likes this.
  12. Cosmodragoon

    Cosmodragoon

    320
    Jan 1, 2019
    I like this design a lot. The changes here do a world of good. I only have one suggestion now and it might be more aesthetic than practical. I'd like to see the choil just a tiny bit deeper or longer to regain balance with the thumb ramp and overall curvature.
     
  13. Ajack60

    Ajack60 Platinum Member Platinum Member

    Apr 21, 2013
    So, you mentioned Cruwear as the steel. You quoted Z-Wear in description. I've got a couple of knives in Z-Wear and really like the performance of the steel. It looks like there's not much difference between Cruwear and Z-Wear. I have never tried Cruwear. That's why I'm a little confused and excited at the same time. Other than that, the latest drawing looks functional and comfortable with extended use. Since I use a guided sharpening system, losing the swedge will make sharpening on a guided system much easier, a plus in my book.

    Do you plan on having a sign up list ????? I would definitely commit to buy one.
     
  14. Sharp & Fiery

    Sharp & Fiery Platinum Member Platinum Member

    760
    May 14, 2012
    Yes, i agree. Those changes do a world of positive change to the knife overall! Looks awesome, Josh!
     
  15. razor-edge-knives

    razor-edge-knives Moderator Moderator Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Apr 3, 2011
    I'm stoked as well man, I feel like it will be less stressful and more of a fun thing for me to make/sell products. And I REALLY love doing the CAD work, it's a blast :D Then seeing it come to life in the real product is simply amazing.

    Thanks for the input but I kinda wanted it a little different than the normal traditional look and want a really blade aggressive design - I don't know why but that has always been attractive to me haha. But I can certainly see how it would still look really good with dropping that out as well and the weight reduction would be nice...

    I can see your point but that's the whole reason I moved the thumb ramp forward... because you want it in front of (closer towards the tip) than the finger choil so your thumb rests naturally there in the choked up position. I didn't really want to make it deeper because the deeper it is the more it will snag when cutting material, the way it is now I have it to where it's slightly angled just before the cutting edge so if something does catch it should slip up and onto the cutting edge... at least, theoretically :)
    [​IMG]

    Both Cruwear (Crucible) and Z-Wear (Zapp) are basically the same steel developed by the companies noted in the parenthesis, and very similar to Vanadis 4 Extra (Uddeholm). They were made after the patent expired on Vasco Die in 1982. Crucible produced Cruwear around 1995 so it's been around a while. Interestingly enough CPM 3V is actually the powdered metallurgy version of Vasco Die. I'm not 100% set on the steel though yet, have more research to do still :) It does seem like Z-wear will have a decent amount of improved toughness over Cruwear w/ Z-Tuff being at the top. i just don't know how much edge retention one would sacrifice.

    interesting read, cruwear/3v/vasco/z-wear history here by @Larrin

    Thanks bro!
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2019
    JJ_Colt45 and Larrin like this.
  16. razor-edge-knives

    razor-edge-knives Moderator Moderator Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Apr 3, 2011
    Curious... @Larrin for this 4.5" blade what would you say would be a good steel? Z-wear, 3V, or A8mod?

    @Twindog how has your A8 mod blade been holding up edge retention wise?
     
  17. bikerector

    bikerector Gold Member Gold Member

    Nov 16, 2016
    If it's like V4E, it is a great steel choice. It's tougher than CPM M4 but holds an edge better than 3V. V4E is supposed to be quite similar to 4V as well. Of course, geometry makes a big difference there as well. I find 3V is tougher than I need in 99% of the tasks I use a knife for, including chopping and batoning, though I do have a few 5160 blades for heavy use. I find steels in the 52100 toughness x edge retention range a perfect blend for most uses. Z-wear seems right along that area of toughness x edge retention but favoring the edge retention side. 3V is just tough a heck and tougher than I need as I've never been able to damage 52100 even.

    I'm using edge retention instead of hardness in the above statements since there is a strong relation to the two, and then using Larrin's charts as reference, from the article you reference about history of 3V, etc. I think 3V is great if you want a tough as can be knife, but it's tougher than needed in many instances so getting more edge retention instead is a better performance mix. In my experience at least. I should also add that I like 52100 and 5160 because they are favorable on my wallet, generally speaking, so there is some bias there in the performance area, though they do perform quite well with a less premium price tag than some of the higher alloy tool steels like 3V and V4E.

    http://www.zknives.com/knives/steels/steelgraph.php?nm=cpm+4v
     
    razor-edge-knives likes this.
  18. Larrin

    Larrin Gold Member Gold Member

    Jan 17, 2004
    4V is very versatile, it was my recommendation for "high alloy" tool steel with all-around properties. Can go higher hardness for edge stability and edge retention or go a little lower on hardness for high toughness.
     
  19. Twindog

    Twindog Gold Member Gold Member

    Apr 6, 2004
    Your knife is looking good, Josh. The A8(mod) blade that you ground for my Rukus 610 easily passed my initial tests for edge stability, but I haven't used it enough to give you an answer for edge retention. I can't get my Rukus with your Vanax SuperClean reblade out of my pocket. That knife just makes me happy because it is so good at everything.

    My thinking on the A8(mod) blade was to have a folder with a super tough blade -- as good or better than Infi -- for extra-hard uses, such as chopping branches that encroach on my hiking trails. The reblade you made was heat treated by Fredrik Haakonsen, who is the master of this steel. At 60 Rc, Fredrik gets not just a super tough blade, but one that has good edge retention, largely because it is so good at preventing both rolls and chips, major and under-appreciated factors that are key to excellent edge retention. I know he also uses Vanadis 4 Extra, so you might want to get his opinion. I have not used Z-wear or Cruwear.

    The blade on your knife has no distal taper, except for the very end where it forms the tip. That's a hard-use design element, but the knife is relatively small, so we're not talking about the high demands of a chopper. Of the steels you're talking about, which are all good, I'd probably put Vanadis 4E first for the reasons that Larrin mentions. A8(mod) would be radical, fitting with the do-it-all utility intention of this knife, but the heat treat would be important.

    I have a special project 7-inch chopper made of A8(mod) with an elaborate custom heat treat. From memory, only 70 were made; and the heat treat, while excellent, proved too expensive for a production knife. There's a funny YouTube video of a bunch of excited Italians chopping a large rock in half and not getting any edge damage. I think Molletta was part of that research effort into that heat treat, so you might want to ask him, too. He's on the forum a lot.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2019
    razor-edge-knives likes this.
  20. Lotmom

    Lotmom Gold Member Gold Member

    165
    Apr 21, 2016
    I'm digging that design! One thing about the firesteel..

    One thing that I haven't seen done on high end knives is stowing fire steel in the handle, like how mora did with their "Light my fire" line. All you'd need is a small cutout in the blade stock and you could make a fitting piece...
     

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