Devin Thomas Damascus - Users steel?

DaveH

DaveH

Joined
Dec 2, 1999
Messages
12,249
Sorry if this has been covered, I used to not pay much attention to damascus.

Is Devin Thomas's damascus fragile, easy to dull, easy to harm finish, etc?

I'm thinking about getting a knife with it, I like the looks of course, but I still want to be able to use it.

Comments?

Damascus newbie, DaveH
 
You may wish to post this on the CR forum. As I recall, they made some comment about the Devin Thomas 'damascus' (it is really pattern welded steel) not being intended for hard use as is the BG-42 model.

If you contemplate hard use, this is not a good steel for you. If, on the other hand, you are going to use it solely for opening letters and packages, cutting string and occasional whittling, etc., then the damascus would be OK. Walt
 
I make quite a few knives with Devin's Stainless Damascus. It is a good using steel. It takes and holds a pretty good edge, about like ATS-34 I would guess, but it is much easier to sharpen than any other high allow steel.

And yes, if you use it you will mess up the pretty pattern with scratches. Some say that just gives it more character; I think it just looks used. I've made about 20 knives with his Damascus. I doubt any have been used.

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Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com
 
Walt, I am confused. I thought pattern welded steel was good using steel. Although comments I have read from makers who create the stuff (e.g. Jerry Fisk) indicate that it is, at best, no better than the harder tool steel that was used in its creation. Are you saying that all pattern welded steel is inherently bad for hard use? Are elaborate patterns somehow negatively effecting the using properties of the edge? Is it something peculiar to Devon Thomas' Stainless damascus? What about other makers of high chromium (stainless) damascus blades?

Devon Thomas has quite a reputation for making fine damascus. And because of the relative costs involved, damascus blades are probably used less often than plain tool steel blades. I agree with Jerry that personal history marks on a gorgeous damascus blade only make the knife look used. That is why most of my collection consists of plain tool steel blades.

But I do love the looks of pattern welded and mosaic blades. I have used a few for light duty. It never occured to me that they were somehow inferior.

Paracelsus, wondering around the Universe

Jerry, what I want to now is: has anyone used one of Your fighters for its intended purpose? (God forbid)

[This message has been edited by Paracelsus (edited 03-08-2000).]
 
Paracelsus; unfortunately, I share a trait with the late Gen. Douglas MacArthur; when asked by President Truman whether the Chinese would invade North Korea if the USA intervened, MacArthur had no idea, but said, to the effect, absolutely not. In other words, I (like 'Dugout Doug')am willing to give an opinion on a subject about which I know nothing.
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I was concerned about DaveH buying a Devon Thomas damascus Seb, and using it to pry open cans, cut the tops of 55 gal drums, etc.

My concerns about this were twofold: I did have a vague recollection about CR saying something to the effect that it would not hold up to hard use as well as would the BG-42. Which is why I referred him to the CR forum.

Secondly, I own about half a dozen of plain and half a dozen damascus Sebs, and I simply cannot bring myself to use such a beautiful damascus blade hard. I cringed to think of DaveH doing the same.

However, no, I have no concrete evidence to back this up; it is more a matter of simply fitting the tool to the job. It might be that I could cut the top of a 55 gal. drum out with one of my damascus Sebs; however, I am about as likely to find that out as I am to find out whether my 4 wheel drive Porsche 911 Carrera 4S can pull out stumps.

I do apologize if I misled anyone. Walt

[This message has been edited by Walt Welch (edited 03-08-2000).]
 
Walt, I do beleive that you May be crazier than my own self. My congratulations on your candor, wit, and recklessness.

I share your hesitation to Use a damascus blade. But I want to be able to at least Imagine using my knife. So I fantasize some sort of bizarre scenario in which society has collapsed, it's everyman for himself, human civilization has been reduced to the Basics, and we all hang around the campfire at night, beating drums in some sort of neolithic shamanic trance, and recount various heroic deeds that we accomplished with our magical damascus blades made by the enlightened Makers of the Former Times.

Paracelsus, oft Mystooken Shaman of the Terrible Ironic Horde

Walt, I would never think of asking you to risk marring the finish of any of your damascus sebbies. God forbid. But I would like some help pulling some stumps. I think you might have just what I need. Porsches are Practical. Right?

[This message has been edited by Paracelsus (edited 03-08-2000).]
 
I don't know about Devin Thomas's damascus being fragile but I have two users of damascus. I DO NOT use any of my knives (yet) to open drums or cut the tops off of cars. Damascus can be a very good user, but as jerry said using it puts scratches, etc on the steel as it would with any other blade. On pattern welded steel if you polish out the scratches you also polish out the patern. If you want the patern back you have to etch it using one of several methods.

I took a course in patern welded steel making from Bill Fiorini last year. He makes both "art" knives and users from patern welded steel. So do lots of other makers. If the blade is made correctly and heat treated properly there is really no difference in the blades.

If you like the blade get it and use it if that is what you want the knife for. Just remember that hard use will screw up the finish on ANY blade steel, and possibly the whole knife, sooner or later.

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Dwight

It's a fine line between "a hobby" and "mental illness".
 
Paracelsus; there is no doubt that I am crazier than you. Remember, I told you that I was stealing your drugs from nurse Rachett, substituting my own, and selling yours. Crazy though you may be, however, I have the greatest respect for you, and routinely assume you are right if you and I disagree. At least until I can check it out.

Which is why I switched my spelling of Mr. Thomas' first name to Devon when you spelled it that way. It is, however, Devin.

I reviewed the CR forum, and there was a dearth of information on the durability of Devin Thomas damascus steel. One poster actually asked this exact question, and there were absolutely NO responses. There were several oblique references in other posts to people who might consider using the damascus blades hard; these references were rather critical to anyone who would dare do such a thing. 'Copfish' in particular, seemed ready to disembowel anyone who would dare sully a damascus blade in such a manner.

As for pulling stumps, yep, the P-car will do it. The back wheels are 285/30 x 18. That is just about a foot wide, and the distance from the rim to the ground is about 3". The car has slightly less ground contact than a dead elephant.
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Walt
 
one thing that isnt brought out above..doesnt he have quite a few kinds, some are stainless and one has nickel and something else and one is tool steel??? these must all perform differently...I have four folder blades that i made out of his firestorm stuff but have never gotten around to finishing one...so have no idea how well it holds up...

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http://www.mayoknives.com


 
CRK will not use the stainless variety I was told. They rely on Devin's high contrast 1095/nickel damascus. I believe the choice is more for looks than utility as Devin also offers higher performing non-stainless damascus types.

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It's only a mistake if you fail to learn from it!
 
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Tom's right, Devin does have 3 different Damascus types. The Stainless Damascus, I normally use as above. The High Contrast Damascus (his least expensive), which is nickel and 1095 tool steel. And his all tool steel Composite Bar Damascus is O2 and 15-N-20 steels, though I think he has other combinations as well. The composite bar material is the most expensive and very complex.

Paracelsus, my fighters are only used to cut up lamb for barbeques. My wife also uses one to open the mail. BTW, last year for the Blade Show I made a fighter in Stainless Damascus. It was arguably the ugliest knife I ever made. The combination of materials and design clashed badly and I was convinced I would own that knife forever. 15 minutes into the show it sold to a guy from NYC. Go figure.
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Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com
 
Just to clarify, my "hard use" is approximately slicing boxes and only occasional whittling.

So I would imagine it's sufficient for that without undo wear. The bottom line is if I carried the piece ( Devin Thomas Sebenza BTW) I would at least want to be able to use it as above without having to worry.

I find the lack of info concerning this slightly concerning, maybe all Devin Thomas pieces are wall hangers or sock drawer lurkers.

DaveH
 
Originally posted by DaveH:

I find the lack of info concerning this slightly concerning, maybe all Devin Thomas pieces are wall hangers or sock drawer lurkers.

DaveH
Click to expand...

I expect so. I've got a folder with a Mike Norris damascus blade, pearl scales and all the other goodies, coming in a while and there's no way I'm going to use it. In mint condition, it's an $800 knife, and there's nothing I need to cut that would be worth turning that $800 knife into a $600 or $500 knife!

Ryan

Ryan



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For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:23


 
I agree with Ryan. Considering that knifemakers might pay $25 or more per inch for Devin's Damascus before we do anything to it, most if not all his steel ends up in high priced knives that are mostly for show.

That doesn't mean they aren't very good using knives, if someone chose to do so. I wouldn't rush to judge a lack of evidence as proof of guilt.

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Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com
 
Mike's stainless damascus uses 420V for the core. Performance should be very good. My first damascus custom will use this steel and I definitely plan on inserting it into rotation when I get it. I believe the reference to Devin's damascus not being durable when used by CRK was those blades with the bronze or blued finish. The steel itself should be fine.

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It's only a mistake if you fail to learn from it!

[This message has been edited by blademan 13 (edited 03-10-2000).]
 
Wait a minute, what am I missing here? Paracelsus and Walt Welch trying to decide who's crazier? Wow, this is going to be a tough one.
I don't know much about Damascus, but I do know crazy...and this conversation ain't over yet.
 
Devin Thomas builds some of the most beautiful damascus patterns around, no doubt, but to imply that they are all show and no-go would do this maker an injustice, I,ve met Devin at several hammer-ins and found him to be quite knowledgeable his welds are flawless, this is the one area that will make or break a damascus blade, pits or inclusions will lead to blade failure if stressed hard enough. Devin has honed his damascus skills through years of experience and in my opinion if he doubted the integrity of his steel he would be in another line of work. He sells his steel annealed and if proper heat treat methods are followed by the maker his steel should perform just fine!! Mike
 
Quote from CR Catalog:

Damascus Options:
The price quoted is for a high carbon & nickel blade etched with Ferric Chloride, which produces a black and white effect. Damascus blades that are Bronzed or Blued, with Salts of Nitre, are available for the additional cost of $XXX.
Please note that the Salts of Nitre Blades are for decoration purposes only. This surface finish does not react well when used to cut items with an acid content, i.e., apples, oranges, fingers, etc.
 
M Lee, Chris Reeve knives don't react well to fingers?

I AM shocked!

Seriously however, this thread raises a number of interesting questions. Are damascus (pattern welded) blades somehow inferior as cutting tools compared to blades of simple (uniform) tool steel? Is the beautiful pattern of high/low acid resistant steels etched in the blade only Pure Decoration?

I think the answer is obvious. Yes, the patterns in highly refined damascus are decorative. Most will not withstand common usage, as in cutting an orange, without being significantly altered in appearance.

Does this make them inferior? I think Not. Does this make them less desirable as Using knives? I think you must answer yes. Does this make them less Desirable? I think NO!

But if a knife is Not a knife, and is only a elaborate piece of Art, never meant to cut anything, how should one value it?

Paracelsus, wondering around the Universe
 
Patern welded steel has been around a long long time (Turkish blades and the ones from India & that general area). All Thomas and the others are doing is what has been done.
If Devin makes his steel the way I think he does, his damascus (don't get pickey on me here) has the properties of the basic componant steels. If he uses two high quality steels then the end result is as good as either and in some cases better than either. Just one thing though, if it's got pure nickle in it, it's a play pretty, not a user.

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