Recommendation? Diamond stones for tsprof Kadet/Hapstone

[Tsenekos68]

Hello I'm new to the forum and had a few questions regarding sharpening stones for the TSPROF Kadet. I will be purchasing from Gritmatic and I see three stones that interest me.
1. Venev Orion set ($300.00)
2. Venev Centaur ($128.00)
3. Edge Pro Diamond Matrix set ($360.00)
Also looking at Cordova/kangaroo strop and Gunny juice poly suspension 1micron and Suehiro G8 8000 Stone for Edge Pro for finishing

The knives I currently own are:
1. Spyderco Caly 3.5 in VG-10
2. Spyderco Delica in ZDP189
3. Spyderco Gayle Bradley bowie
4. Spyderco Native Chief in Rex 45
5. Apyderco Manix 2 in M390
6. Buck 119
Numerous multi tools, fillet knives...

I have read literally hundreds of forum posts, blogs, watched tons of youtube reviews, tutorials.... but still have Qs.

1. Where can I find the best sharpening tutorials? Most are quite vague in terms of how to create a burr, apex......
2. Do I need to condition any of the above diamond stones? I purchased a King Nagura stone based on some forum suggestions.
3. Do I need a full set of stones or could I get by with four (ex. Venev - 150, 400, 800, 1200?) I have a few blades that are quite dull.

I have looked hard at KME and Hapstone but love the compact size and storage size of the Kadet (KNE is good here too)
I like to buy once, cry once but always try to buy the best quality without unnecessary cost.

I appreciate any information and would specifically love to hear from people who may have used the above stones, sharpening systems....

Cheers,

Chris

 

[cmfkdragoon]

For instruction on sharpening freehand, Murray Carter has two videos on his YouTube channel that are very comprehensive and, while heavy on kitchen cutlery, discuss fundamentals that can be applied to all knife sharpening. They were helpful for me.

Blade Sharpening Fundamentals (2hr 51min, but a lot that can be skipped):

Advanced Blade Sharpening Fundamentals:

 

[Tsenekos68]

For instruction on sharpening freehand, Murray Carter has two videos on his YouTube channel that are very comprehensive and, while heavy on kitchen cutlery, discuss fundamentals that can be applied to all knife sharpening. They were helpful for me.

Blade Sharpening Fundamentals (2hr 51min, but a lot that can be skipped):

Advanced Blade Sharpening Fundamentals:

Thank you. I will watch these many times.

Cheers

 

[Tsenekos68]

Anybody have any experience with the venev centaur/orion or other stones?

 

[Scaniaman]

I use the Hapstone R2 with the metallic bonded diamond stones. Really like them and not needing to worry about flatness.
I use three stones 100/80 40/28 14/10 works great.

 

[Old Biker]

Anybody have any experience with the venev centaur/orion or other stones?

I don't have any experience With the Venev stones. I use a set of diamond plates similar to the basic diamond set the Gritomatic sells. BUT. If you go down to the maintenance forum and do a search for venev centaur/orion, I think you will find a fair amount of information.

O.B.

 

[Tsenekos68]

I use the Hapstone R2 with the metallic bonded diamond stones. Really like them and not needing to worry about flatness.
I use three stones 100/80 40/28 14/10 works great.

Thank you. It’s all a bit confusing and the more I research, the more confused I get. Appreciate your help

 

[Tsenekos68]

Thanks for the re

I don't have any experience With the Venev stones. I use a set of diamond plates similar to the basic diamond set the Gritomatic sells. BUT. If you go down to the maintenance forum and do a search for venev centaur/orion, I think you will find a fair amount of information.

O.B.

direct. I probably posted in the wrong area. I will check there.

 

[ryanh121]

The maintenance forum is an amazing resource. Regardless of your stone choice, just remember to chase the bur. This is of utmost importance in sharpening.

 

[Tsenekos68]

Thank you. It’s all a bit confusing and the more I research, the more confused I get. Appreciate your

 

[Tsenekos68]

I use the Hapstone R2 with the metallic bonded diamond stones. Really like them and not needing to worry about flatness.
I use three stones 100/80 40/28 14/10 works great.

Thanks for the info. One question. I’m not sure I understand what grit stones you have. I understand 100/80 but not 40/28 and 14/10. Sorry I’m new to this.

 

[Tsenekos68]

I don't have any experience With the Venev stones. I use a set of diamond plates similar to the basic diamond set the Gritomatic sells. BUT. If you go down to the maintenance forum and do a search for venev centaur/orion, I think you will find a fair amount of information.

O.B.

Thank you I’ve been going through it today and it’s very helpful

 

[Tsenekos68]

The maintenance forum is an amazing resource. Regardless of your stone choice, just remember to chase the bur. This is of utmost importance in sharpening.

Yes it will be a learning curve for sure. I have s sharpmaker but for zdp189, m390… I feel like it’s an eternity to get them sharp. It works wonders on my buck 119-soft steel and for touch ups though. With two young daughters my patience quota gets drained by the time I hit the sharpmaker

 

[cudgee]

Anybody have any experience with the venev centaur/orion or other stones?

I have some Venev Centaur stones. Really good, for an average work/carry knife you only need these.

 

[Tsenekos68]

I have some Venev Centaur stones. Really good, for an average work/carry knife you only need these.

This is one of the sets I'm looking at. Do you think there is any advantage going with the Orion. I was thinking the 240. 400, 800, 1200. That or full set of centaur.?

 

[3D Anvil]

I have experience with Venev bench stones (240/400 and 800/1200), and the Diamond Matrix stones (KME version). One thing to keep in mind about the Venev stones is that they are using FEPA F grit ratings, which are quite different from the FEPA P rating used by Japanese stone makers. For example, the Venev 1200 stone is roughly equivalent to a Japanese 4000 grit stone, which is about the same as the Matrix 5 micron stone.

The Venev 150 may be okay as your coarsest stone, but I'd definitely recommend something more aggressive if you plan on reprofiling your edges to lower-than-factory angles (which is usually a good idea, IMO). I'd go for the Centaur double-sided set, which seems to have all the grits you'd need for $128. That's a good deal. That'll take you to a near-mirror finish. Add a couple strops with 3 micron and 1 or .5 micron CBN or diamond emulsion and that will take you to a mull mirror finish.

As far as detecting the burr, the way I do it on a guided system is to use a loop (or cheapo electronic microscope) to gauge how close I'm getting to the apex, which tells you when you need to start feeling for the burr. The different scratch pattern of the new edge is clearly visible with magnification. When the new pattern reaches the apex, then you can brush your finger tips against the edge to feel for the burr, which will feel coarse/scratchy against your fingers. You can also drag a fingernail toward the edge. If there's a burr, your nail will catch on it (usually!).

My best advice is stay on your first stone until you are SURE you have a burr from the tip to the heel of the blade. When you're starting out that means going a little farther than you might need to go as you gain experience and get better at feeling the burr. Make sure you get a full burr on both sides before you move on to the next stone. That's really 80-90% of the sharpening job. After that it's just refining scratches with progressively higher grits.

 

[Scaniaman]

Thanks for the info. One question. I’m not sure I understand what grit stones you have. I understand 100/80 but not 40/28 and 14/10. Sorry I’m new to this.

Check out this chart, it's good

Grit Chart

A logarithmic scale has the property of equidistant spacing for any geometric progression, meaning that a ideal stone series will be uniformly spaced.

www.gritomatic.com

 

[777 Edge]

I would go for the Venev Centaur set (or Ursa set) if I were you. I have and use all of the Venev stones, and yes the Orion set is nice with the aluminum back plate, but your value for money is MUCH better with a set of Centaur or Ursa stones. The stones and composition are exactly the same as the Orion, only they are double sided. The TSProf Kadet that you're looking at, comes with optional universal stone holders (check with Gritomatic before buying and make sure you get the "Improved universal stone holders").

Don't bother with the Suehiro G8 8000 for now, your finish on the 1200 or 1500 Venev stones will be superb already. Just go straight to your strops with diamond paste/emulsion from there.

Regarding your other question about the grit rating, Venev uses 2 ratings. Firstly, they use FEPA-F, and the second rating is the Russian GOST particle size rating for their diamond average size in microns. The GOST rating gives you average diamond particle size (microns) between the upper and lower range. For your info, the FEPA-F grit rating is also vastly different to Japanese JIS rating (Like on the Suehiro.) A Venev FEPA-F 1500 grit, would be about the same as a Japanese JIS 6000 Grit, FYI. This would traslate to the fact that the Venev 1500 is not much different to the Suehiro 8K. The Vanadium carbides in your Rex 45 and M390 also sharpens much better with diamond stones.

 

[Tsenekos68]

I have experience with Venev bench stones (240/400 and 800/1200), and the Diamond Matrix stones (KME version). One thing to keep in mind about the Venev stones is that they are using FEPA F grit ratings, which are quite different from the FEPA P rating used by Japanese stone makers. For example, the Venev 1200 stone is roughly equivalent to a Japanese 4000 grit stone, which is about the same as the Matrix 5 micron stone.

The Venev 150 may be okay as your coarsest stone, but I'd definitely recommend something more aggressive if you plan on reprofiling your edges to lower-than-factory angles (which is usually a good idea, IMO). I'd go for the Centaur double-sided set, which seems to have all the grits you'd need for $128. That's a good deal. That'll take you to a near-mirror finish. Add a couple strops with 3 micron and 1 or .5 micron CBN or diamond emulsion and that will take you to a mull mirror finish.

As far as detecting the burr, the way I do it on a guided system is to use a loop (or cheapo electronic microscope) to gauge how close I'm getting to the apex, which tells you when you need to start feeling for the burr. The different scratch pattern of the new edge is clearly visible with magnification. When the new pattern reaches the apex, then you can brush your finger tips against the edge to feel for the burr, which will feel coarse/scratchy against your fingers. You can also drag a fingernail toward the edge. If there's a burr, your nail will catch on it (usually!).

My best advice is stay on your first stone until you are SURE you have a burr from the tip to the heel of the blade. When you're starting out that means going a little farther than you might need to go as you gain experience and get better at feeling the burr. Make sure you get a full burr on both sides before you move on to the next stone. That's really 80-90% of the sharpening job. After that it's just refining scratches with progressively higher grits.

Thanks. I did read that the venev were equivalent to a much higher grit Japanese stone. So much to keep in mind. The centaur seem like a really sweet deal for sure especially once I convert the US dollar to Canadian and pay shipping, tax, duty...makes me wanna cry

 

[Tsenekos68]

Check out this chart, it's good

Grit Chart

A logarithmic scale has the property of equidistant spacing for any geometric progression, meaning that a ideal stone series will be uniformly spaced.

www.gritomatic.com

I'm going to blow that chart up and put it on the wall. Thanks