Digital Camera - Canon S70

[UnknownVT]

I had to buy a new digicam -

my previous Canon A70 (3mp) was worn out after 21 months and putting some 60K shots through it - it became unreliable I often missed shots because of its bad bahavior.

However I stuck and survived with the "devil you know" for my 3 weeks trip in China (photo links at bottom of post) and ordered my new digicam as soon as I got back.

It's a Canon PowerShot S70 (7mp) a little on the more expensive side - but I do a lot of photography - eg: I retrieved the thing last Tuesday (June/7/2005) evening from FedEx - charged the battery - went out that night to 3 venues and took 97 shots - by Thursday June/9 - I had accumulated a shot count of 371.

While the digicam is still new to me and the battery duration unknown - I carry a spare.

Of course it's hard to do comparisons since my most recent digicam the A70 was malfunctioning. However the operation of my new S70 seems smoother - perhaps a bit faster and more positive.

Like the A70 the Spot auto focus would often indicate it was not focussing in darker environments especially if the lens was zoomed even slightly - and it's exasperated by the fact P, Tv, Av modes can NOT be set to the multi-point AiAF, and can only be set on Spot focus.

However when the focus indicator flashes to show bad focus - I just point the thing at the same spot and pre-focus again - and even if the indicator light flashes I force the shot (because otherwise I can't take the shot and will miss a great deal)
and so far (touch wood) all of those shots which had the indicator say bad focus, all seem to be well focussed - at least to my satisfaction.........

The photo quality of the S70 - the much larger pixel count aside - seems much higher than I had experienced with the 3mp A70. I have taken some shots which I know would be pretty low in possibility of coming out well on the A70 - that have surprised me with the S70 quality.

Please take a look at this album all taken on my new S70

Swamp Cabbage 2005

and this album where there are A70 shots, and last 10 photos marked 050607 are on the S70

Electromatics 2005


in particular this telephoto shot (bad focus indicated) which I know would have a very low probablity of success on the A70 - was outstanding in its quality on the S70 (ISO100, Tv, 1/5 sec)

LeeGoodness050607.jpg

I decided on the S70 because 7Mp had been my target to replace film (ha-ha remember those old arguments?) since it gives 10"x8" at 300ppi -
of course my previous 3mp A70 basically surplanted any film photography, because of its satisfactory quality up to 10x8, and mostly due to economy...... even my previous 2mp Digital ELPH S100 eventually displaced film too.....

However the reason for the S70 was that I needed a camera that I could literally carry everyday (I'm NOT kidding - I did this with the A70 and previous to that the S100 - in excess of 5 years now)

Much as I covet and desire a DSLR and was VERY tempted with the dropping prices of the original Canon Digital Rebel 6mp - the 7mp S70 with better tested resolution would curb that temptation - whereas if I bought the other digicam under consideration the Canon A95 some $150+ cheaper - that temptation would still very much be open .....

I might still consider the new Canon Digital Rebel XT 8mp - but I think for now the S70 is satisfactory - since it has the zoom range of (equivalent) 28-100mm probably ideal for my type of photography.......


FWIW - My China photos [all taken on an intermittently faulty Canon A70 (3mp) ] -

Beijing

Shanghai

WeiHai

--
Vincent

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[Planterz]

I had to buy a new digicam -

my previous Canon A70 (3mp) was worn out after 21 months and putting some 60K shots through it - it became unreliable I often missed shots because of its bad bahavior.

This is why I almost always get the product replacement or service plans if available. It seems like either I don't get one and thing POS breaks, or I never need to use it. I just got me a new camera myself along with the 4 year service plan. The thing is, if I didn't get it, I'm sure it'll break right after the warranty runs out. So I'll get the plan. But now that I have the plan, it'll last 4 years and the money will be "wasted". Instead I like to think of the plan as a voodoo hex that magically prolongs the life of the camera just to piss me off.

How are the macro shots on your new toy?

 

[UnknownVT]

This is why I almost always get the product replacement or service plans if available. It seems like either I don't get one and thing POS breaks, or I never need to use it. I just got me a new camera myself along with the 4 year service plan. The thing is, if I didn't get it, I'm sure it'll break right after the warranty runs out. So I'll get the plan. But now that I have the plan, it'll last 4 years and the money will be "wasted". Instead I like to think of the plan as a voodoo hex that magically prolongs the life of the camera just to piss me off.

How are the macro shots on your new toy?

That's really good advice. Thank you for bringing it up.

I never used to even consider extended warranties - I even sneered at them.

But Digital Cameras seem like real good candidates for extended warranties.

I just did some minimal research after reading your post and found the Mack Extended Warranties to be the most prevalent.

They however will not cover accidental damage or "abuse". Though it still looks like a good deal to get it.

Macro ability - I hardly ever use it prefering to use my flatbed scanner to do most of my close-ups of small objects - please see:

some general flatbed Scanners advice

The comprehensive Canon S70 Review Sample Images at Imaging-Resource.com said this:
QUOTE:
Macro Shot
A very small macro area with excellent detail, but the flash has trouble up close.

The S70 captured a tiny macro area, measuring only 2.26 x 1.69 inches (57 x 43 millimeters). Resolution is very high, and detail is very strong in the dollar bill. Details are softer in the coins and brooch, partly due to the close range and partly to some distortion from the lens that softens detail in the corners of the frame. (Shallow depth of field is an optical fact of life in macro shooting, so isn't the camera's fault. Softness in the corners of images is a consequence of curvature of field in the camera's optics, and is unfortunately a near-universal limitation with digicam macro options.) The S70's flash had trouble throttling down for the macro area, and overexposed the shot. (The camera's lens also blocks part of the flash in the lower right corner.) - Plan on using external lighting for your closest macros shots with the S70.
UNQUOTE

The Review at dpReview.com

says:
QUOTE:
Macro Focus
The S70 produced its best macro frame coverage at full wide angle. Inevitably this leads to fairly obvious barrel distortion as well as corner softness. At telephoto coverage is less good (97 mm across the frame) however distortion is nonexistent and corner softness is low. Not bad at all.
Wide macro - 64 x 48 mm coverage
32 px/mm (809 px/in)
Distortion: Low
Corner softness: Average
Equiv. focal length: 28 mm

Tele macro - 97 x 72 mm coverage
21 px/mm (535 px/in)
Distortion: Very low
Corner softness:Average
Equiv. focal length: 100 mm
UNQUOTE


and finally the often insightful review at dcResource.com
says:
QUOTE:
The S70 produced a smooth, somewhat washed-out photo of our usual macro test subject. Manual white balance allowed the camera to handle my quartz studio lamps with ease.

The focus range in macro mode is 4 - 44 cm at wide-angle and 30 - 44 cm at telephoto.
UNQUOTE

BTW - I was out again last night taking pictures of the jump blues band Little Charlie & the Night Cats. I ended up keeping 81 shots and the Canon S70 didn't produce a single bad shot (technically), the ones I deleted were my own fault like bad timing or framing. It's nice to have a camera I can have confidence in (again ). The 28mm wide angle end to the zoom was especially welcome allowing me to get better overall band shots easily without having to back into the crowd. The "bad focus" indication was still there occassionally but the resultant shot still seems to be in focus - I'm not 100% happy with this - but the results do speak for themselves - at least to my satisfaction........

Thanks for the input.

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[mete]

There has been a tremendous improvement in cameras , like other electronics, so after a few years it's not worth fixing.Longer battery life, shorter wait between pictures ,better lenses etc. That's also why you shouldn't get last years model despite the price saving.

 

[UnknownVT]

There has been a tremendous improvement in cameras , like other electronics, so after a few years it's not worth fixing.Longer battery life, shorter wait between pictures ,better lenses etc. That's also why you shouldn't get last years model despite the price saving.

This is again very good advice.

Digital cameras are still somewhat progressing - although price-wise they have fallen into the mainstream of things -

3mp seems now to be the minimum entry level and often can be found for about $100 - which is amazing, considering these things used to sell for over $1K!

That's one of the reasons I used to avoid extended warranties - since most reputable brands give a 1 year warranty - and by that time most models have been superceded - often with very noticable improvments.

However the 7mp Canon S70 - for now satisfies most of my cravings in terms of image quality and performance - so an extra $20-$30 for the extended warranty might be worthwhile for peace of mind - as I really would like this digicam to last me about 2-3 years, and would be upset if it dies on me in less than 2 years.........

Canon have started to standardize on their newer Dig!c II sensors/processors which improves response times and speed of performance - evidence the response times of the 7mp Canon SD500 (Digital ELPH) vs. my S70.

But for most of my shooting - which I do actually need fast response times - I don't seem to be waiting on the S70 - well, not much anyway - so it satisfies me enough.

I guess I could have waited for the "replacement" for the S70 (with a Dig!c II processor) - but I needed a digicam now - and if I bought something else as an intrim measure (like the 5mp Canon A95 which was also considered) - it would not satisfy me, and would basically be an additional expense which I could do without.

Thanks for the insightful input.

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[UnknownVT]

I mentioned that my new Canon S70 seemed to give better images than the A70 - discounting the obvious fact the S70 has many more pixels.

What did I mean?

Well, although I said it subjectively - even I wasn't too sure how to show this quantitatively.

I tried an ad-hoc experiment - taking the following photos -

Canon S70 (7mp)
7mp with SuperFine JPG
7mp with Fine JPG
3mp with SuperFine JPG
3mp with Fine JPG

Canon A70 (3mp)
3mp with SuperFine JPG
3mp with Fine JPG

With both cameras I zoomed to the maximum telephoto (S70 = 100mm, A70 = 105mm equivalents - so the A70 lens is some 5% longer - resulting in a full-frame which is linearly 5% larger - everything else being equal) and took all the photos within minutes of each other:

I then cropped the tiny area marked in red - to get:

100% crops compared - top row SuperFine JPG, lower row Fine JPG -

The 3mp images from the S70 seem better than those from the A70 -
Notice I can see very little material difference between the SuperFine and Fine JPGs in any of the pairs.

The 7mp crop was DownSampled to get approx the same size as the 3mp image crop -

Here the downsampled 7mp image does seem better than those from the A70.
They should in theory be the same as the 3mp images from the S70......

3mp images from both the S70 and A70 were UpSampled to the same size as the full 7mp crop - and sharpened to bring out the details -

This is the most telling image since one can see better.
The Upsampled 3mp image from the S70 is not quite on par as the original 7mp crop -
but in practice printed, one probably would not see that much difference.
Any of the S70 images seem to me to be better than those from the A70.

What do you think?

Comments please?

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[Ryan8]

3mp seems now to be the minimum entry level and often can be found for about $100 - which is amazing, considering these things used to sell for over $1K!

The only this is that today's 3MP cameras are budget cameras. If you buy one you probably won't end up with much of anything good - little or no optical zoom, no advanced manual controls, etc. In many respects you'd be better off buying an old one when 3MP meant a high end camera.

 

[sygyzy]

Great choice. Once Dell has a new deal, this will replace my S45!

 

[UnknownVT]

Great choice. Once Dell has a new deal, this will replace my S45!

Thanks - one can get the Canon S70 for just under $410 shipped from a reputable vendor (found using PriceGrabber.com).

The Canon S70 has had some glowing reviews:

Very comprehensive reviews -

Review Sample Images on Imaging-Resource.com


dpReview.com on the Canon S70

and the often insightful reviews at -

dcResource.com on the Canon S70

Here's some more reasoning (justification? ) for getting the Canon S70 -

Compact size - I need a digicam that I can literally EDC - so it has to be compact enough. (I consider the Canon G6, Sony V3 of this world too big for daily carry everywhere. This counts double for DSLRs - even though I covet their quality - they are just too bulky for EDC)

Shutter Priority - I use a lot of slow synchronized flash for my work - often called "dragging the shutter" - although "Night Portait" mode would do for some - often I have to use shutter priority to control the amount of motion I capture.

Wider angle than 35mm - although I had been getting away and making do for over 5 years with 35mm as my widest angle - this really was a work-around. So going to 38mm (even narrower) like on the other digicam under serious consideration the 5mp Canon A95 - just would not do it - I would be even further compromised. Both the 5mp Canon S60 and the 7mp S70 have 28-100mm optical zooms. (other digicams with wider than 35mm are the 6mp (12mp interpolated) Fuji E550 32.5-130mm, and the 5mp Fuji E510 28-112mm - unfortunately they both have more than one report of difficulty focussing in darker enviroments - which is exactly where I take most of my photos.......)

Optical viewfider - I use this all the time and hardly ever the LCD monitor except for precise framing for still life macro type shots.

Lastly 7mp - why? I covet the quality of DSLRs mostly good quality 6mp and now some 8mp - even though I know I can get away with 5mp (in fact I had been getting away with 3mp and even 2mp....) The 7mp offering seem to show better image quality in terms of noise, color rendition, dynamic range than the 5mps -
and this last point is personal and economics - the 7mp Canon S70 would basically stop me from even considering the now bargain priced 6mp Canon Digital Rebel..... and probably inhibit/curb my desire for the 8mp Canon Digital Rebel XT too.

--
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[Don Luis]

Nice piece of equipment you've got there Vincent.

Thanks for the review. You know, I went to China in 1972, I took a 6X6 Bronica and a 35mm Nikon FTn (try to EDC that ), I used mostly Kodak Tri-X and Agfa slide film. Times have changed indeed....

Luis

 

[geothorn]

I had to buy a new digicam -

Another amazing review, Vincent. Canon or Victorinox should hire you.

I bought a 1.3 MP Sony DSC-S30 in September 2000 for $450. Prices are dropping as the refinements to the cameras continue to improve.

Don Luis is correct. Today's digital cameras leave yesterday's film cameras in the dust, in size and weight as well as functionality. However, "for insurance purposes," film cameras are still preferred as there are fewer ways to alter an image on a film negative, or, for that matter, a photo taken with a Polaroid.

GeoThorn

 

[UnknownVT]

Many thanks for your kind comments -
I do so enjoy being on this forum because of the responses I get -
y'all seem to encourage me with my obessive complusive behavior!

Here's another set of photos from the Canon S70 -

Howlin' Wolf Fest - 2005

You might notice the date of these photos - they were taken on the same night as those of the Swamp Cabbage - at a different venue.........

More comparison tests - this time of the macro/close up ability - cropped area shown in Red

Dollar bill and coins -
Flash ON - 7mp Fine JPG

NO Flash - 7mp Fine JPG

Compared to Scanned at 300dpi

100% crops - the Canon S70 image had about 2.75x the magnifcation of the scanned image -

Notice there is some overall softness to the 100% images from the Canon S70 - the Flash ON shot shows lower brightness due to the reflection of the quarter choking down the exposure overall.

Resized Canon S70 crops to match the scanned image -
this is kind of more realistically what one might see on print -

Here on the resized comparison - although there is a distinct color tint difference between the scanned and the two Canon images - the definition and detail are terrific - there is absolutely NO post processing - other than the resizing. Amazing.......

Ever since I was able to afford cameras - I always longed for a compact/pocketable camera that would match the quality (first), and some of the flexiblity of my SLRs. With 35mm some point & shoots came close - but I always felt some lack of confidence - more so than when I was using the SLRs.

But without being conscious of it - I think with the Canon S70 I may have finally realized that dream of carrying a pocket sized camera that could almost match the quality and everything I can do on an SLR -
with more confidence -
since I can review the images immediately after I've taken the shot........

Thanks all your encouragement guys.

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[UnknownVT]

maybe at this point I'm just talking to myself

Nevertheless I wanted to say more about the image quality of the Canon S70.

This weekend I had the occassion to shoot a couple of outdoor musical events - one where unfortunately I did not get a photo pass and had to shoot from way back.

The Canon S70 has a nice zoom range of 28-100mm equivalent - which is very suitable for most of my photography -
BUT on this occassion even at the maximum telephoto end it was woefully lacking.....

Or so I thought

Checkout the last 14 photos (all marked with *050626) of this album:

13 Stories 2005 Pt.2

They are one of my favorite bands to photograph - for pretty obvious reasons

Look at this -

It's a pretty severe crop from this full-frame shot -

I was pretty impressed - as normally with my previous cameras - including my 35mm SLRs** - I would consider this pretty marginal for quality.......

Well, OK with a good system one probably could squeeze the crop/shot out to be pretty reasonable - maybe it's not that "amazing"....

OK, how about this one?

I think I would be pretty happy with this shot - there doesn't seem to be all that much compromise - certainly not in technical quality anyway.....

Here's the full-frame shot -

Now even I'm impressed!

[** just in case -
a 35mm shot would probably retain the resolution and sharpness - but such a crop probably would start showing image degrading grain and lose some other image quality aspects - like color saturation and contrast - which requires specialized pro work to restore.]

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[Ryan8]

Macro photography is fun. Bah these aren't from an S70 but what the heck.

 

[UnknownVT]

I spent the better part of last Saturday at our local blues society festival (the other outdoor event) -
Back Porch Blues

and a separate album on the legendary

Hubert Sumlin
- Howlin' Wolf's guitarist and "son".
Hubert is my all time guitar hero -
he is also Eric Clapton's - who refused to play the Howlin' Wolf London Sessions unless Hubert was there......


Most of my photos tend to be in dark clubs - so daylight photos are not so common - but look at the (technical) quality of this shot from the Back Porch Blues album -

- to my mind, that leaves very little to be desired in terms of (technical) improvement out of a camera.....

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[UnknownVT]

Viewfinders - S70 vs. DSLR -

a thought occured to me last night as I was taking photos in yet another dark music venue.....

Let's back up just a bit - among other digicams that were under serious consideration were DSLRs like the 6mp D Rebel, the newer 8mp D Rebel XT and the G6 (as well as A95).

Size was an issue as I literally EDC (EveryDay Carry) my digicam - every single day whenever I am out of my house. DSLRs and the G6 would be just too bulky for convinient carry. The G6 got eliminated because although the f/2 aperture lens would be "superior" for lower light photography - the fact that the widest angle was still 35mm meant it loses out.

The DSLR's although bulky - I may still have considered them because of their pretty obvious superiority as shooting machines. In the end I decided for the S70 because of the portability and most of the positive attributes and image quality of the DSLRs from the new 7mp sensor.....
One thing I did NOT think of at the time was what occured to me last night (see later**)

The A95 was attractive because it was compact/portable - retained the Compact Flash and used AA batteries like my previous A70. It also gains the attractive tilt and swivel LCD screen. However becaue of the widest angle of the lens was 38mm - which is about 10% narrower than the 35mm I had been using on the A70 - it didn't make it. From test reviews the 5mp chip was surprisingly noisier than the 7mp. What about the twisty LCD?

Unlike many others I seldom use the LCD monitor as a viewfinder. For my photography I have to be able to see detail and fleeting expressions clearly. I have not found any LCD screen that could be clear, or fast enough to do this.

Another very, very important point to me - is that I shoot alot at deliberately slow shutter speeds** (dragging the shutter) and have to be able to hold the camera still - the typical two hand arms extended hold for LCD viewing is much less stable than being able to push the camera against my face for an extra point of support.

** Viewfinders -
First let me be clear I fully acknowledge the superiority of TTL (through the lens) SLR viewfiders over the typical squinty optical viewfinders found on p&s cameras - this was one of the prime considerations for the DSLR.

BUT last night I realized my inadvertant correct decision of choosing the S70.

Since I shoot a lot with SLOW shutter speeds in the typical range of 1/8 to 1 sec - I have to hold the camera as still as I can (no, I obviously do not eliminate all camera shake) - to do this I have to follow-through - ie: keep my eye on the target.....

I think some of you who are following all this may have got it .....

On DSLRs and any SLR there is a blackout during exposure - which is negligible for normal daylight exposures and shutter speeds as the blackout is a mere blink.

BUT when the shutter speed is for example about 1/3 sec this blackout becomes very noticable and it would make any follow-through much more difficult. This didn't occured to me until last night when the majority of my exposures were at a deliberate 0.4 sec and 1sec. There would be no way a DSLR could be held with follow-through for me.

Now I understand why many legendary photographers chose rangefinder cameras (like Leicas) over SLRs for low light photography......

With a typical direct vision optical viewfinder there is no blackout and allows me follow through.....

Hence (retrospectively) my "correct" choice of the Canon S70 over some very tough and superior competition.

13 Stories - both shots taken at 0.4 sec

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[Ming65]

Viewfinders - S70 vs. DSLR -


Now I understand why many legendary photographers chose rangefinder cameras (like Leicas) over SLRs for low light photography......

I've come to the same conclusion Vincent (great review by the way) For my uses, going up to a DSLR negates one of the big advantages of digital photography - the amazing low light performance and hand held shutter speeds. That mirror bounce affects the slow hand held shots and adds extra noise. I've been using a Lieca D1 for the past couple of years - now I'm upgrading to the D2 (or the LC1, it's panasonic equivalent)

 

[Don Luis]

Interesting, my mother had a Canon Pellix 35mm SLR, it had a semitransparent mirror that would stay in place during the shot and a curtain in the viewfinder with which you could block out unwanted light when used away from the face as on a tripod.

So no blackout during exposure and no camera shake from the mirror, the disadvantages were a loss of a fraction of an F-stop due to not all light going to the film and the slightly dark viewfinder which would make focusing a bit hard in low light. but overall a very nice camera

http://www.canon.com/camera-museum/camera/1955-1969/data/1965_prx.html

Luis

 

[UnknownVT]

Interesting, my mother had a Canon Pellix 35mm SLR, it had a semitransparent mirror that would stay in place during the shot and a curtain in the viewfinder with which you could block out unwanted light when used away from the face as on a tripod.

So no blackout during exposure and no camera shake from the mirror, the disadvantages were a loss of a fraction of an F-stop due to not all light going to the film and the slightly dark viewfinder which would make focusing a bit hard in low light. but overall a very nice camera

Now that you reminded me - I do remember the Canon Pellix SLR -
I thought it ws a real neat idea - until it was pointed out not only was there a light loss via the viewfinder - but also light loss at the film exposure -
then there was possible problems of dirt on the semi-silvered mirror which not only would cause viewing problems - but more importantly degrade the actual image.

But it wasn't such a bad idea - some years later Canon produced a high-speed motor dirve camera using the pellix semi-silvered mirror for exactly the advantages given by Luis which allowed the camera to shoot at very high fps....

I'm not too sure if a DSLR with the pellix mirror technology would win me over to using a DSLR - I think I'm getting along fine with the simple (albeit squinty) optical viewfinder -

Actually the optical viewfinder seems to be more accurate on the S70 than my previous S100 or A70 - both of which seem to have much larger margin of error toward the top edge of the frame (for a horizontal picture) -
so much so, that I learnt to compensate for this, especially when shooting vertical/portrait oriented shots -
I normally allow for more to be captured to the outside right of the frame (for the way I hold the camera), and my earlier S70 shots show this bias and I had to re-learn my framing to allow for the fact the S70 optical viewfinder is more accurate in centralizing the subject view.

Some more pics of 13 Stories from Saturday night - the last 20 photos.

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